Dr. Nobody™ Podcast
Dr. Nobody™ Podcast
Episode 17 - Climbing to the Top
In last week's episode, we discovered the Art of Leadership. In most cases, leadership skills are part of an essential toolkit needed to get to the top. And when I mean top, I mean the big boss. Sometimes it's by total chance that you get a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to manage a company. Other times it is your hard work and aspirations that someone notices and believes you... are the one. In this week's episode, it is the latter case. Jesse Kates is a managing director at Neon and he shares with us his unique journey from being a copywriter to managing an agency with his partner, Mardene Miller. I can assure you, that this one is loaded with funny stories, good laughs, and most importantly essential lessons so that you and I can take our career to the next level.
00:00.00
drnobodypodcast
All right? Welcome everybody to the Dr. Nobody podcast. Thank you for coming back and listening to the show today I have a good 1 for you today I have a friend of mine co-worker Jesse who will be talking about his rise to becoming a managing director and what does that mean and what does that entail. But before we get going I want jesse to go ahead and introduce himself give us a little little intro about yourself and the listeners to know what's going all going on today.
00:27.59
Jesse
Hi guys I'm ah my name is Jesse gates as Carlos said um his friend I met him at gray which is a big ad agency in the city and very happy to have him here now at Neon which is where I'm 1 of the co-managing directors with my partner. Marine miller mardine is the managing director sort of head of the account side of things and I'm the head of the creative side of things and together. We. We run the agency.
00:56.25
drnobodypodcast
Awesome! So there's a couple things here that I guess we'll follow up on first. What is a managing director to what is an account person because you know there's a lot of different things that people are learning on this podcast. You know you know what? you don't even have to answer that. What's really interesting.
01:05.68
Jesse
Each other.
01:14.78
drnobodypodcast
I Want people to learn about is what a creative director does and.
01:16.18
Jesse
That That's a great great Question. So I'll I'll start by saying that I I had no idea what any of these things were when I got into business when I heard the word copyright copywriter I figured it had something to do with law like copyright law and um. Obviously had nothing to do with creativity to me so I had no interest and then when someone explained it to me I Realized like this was the next best thing to what I had been studying at the time which was film and Tv stuff So A creative director is kind of the the managing side of Creativity. Coming up from either a writer or an art director and and I came up from the writing side. So A copywriter is the the guy who a guy or gal who writes the ad copy on any of the ads that you see on Tv and print posters a lot a lot of stuff on the web now or if it's. Specific audiences like Healthcare providers the stuff that you know reps from different companies will go and use as aids to selling that that we create.
02:22.41
drnobodypodcast
And what what does? What would you define as a managing director. What does your role mean.
02:28.61
Jesse
So yes, so it's kind of a nebulous thing I mean essentially what I do is um I I'm 1 of the 2 people who who lead the agency um that Carlos and and and I both work at and we're were're co partnerners. And what I do is look over more of the creative side of things. The creative side of the output like I'm sort of the guy who's I guess the head chef if you will like we're talking about Donuts I'm the guy who supervises the quality of those donuts and make sure that the donuts are delicious, fresh and of great variety and.
02:53.41
drnobodypodcast
So.
03:05.62
Jesse
Tasty to the types of people that will come in and buy the donuts and my partner runs the the business side of things and there's some good overlap in there and synergy that that I think is valuable for all of us.
03:16.25
drnobodypodcast
Such a interesting way of telling me and the listeners What you do because now that makes more sense to me now. So I appreciate that? Um, so I know a little bit about you because we had a little talk beforehand.
03:25.80
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.
03:34.42
drnobodypodcast
So why don't you tell the listeners about your story How you came from not actually getting to this point in your life to actually having a change and then now you're you know now you're the managing director at an agency and.
03:46.59
Jesse
Yeah, so like I mentioned I had no I didn't know anything about advertising when when I went to college well I'll go back even further I I always liked a lot of different things in life. So for a while I wanted to be a marine biologist and then I wanted to be a doctor and at some point I think I wanted to fly fighter jets like. Was just really all over the place and when um, when I got to college I went to a college but Bassar I I sort of realized that there was a big creative side of me that I hadn't really explored before and that and that was in storytelling and I was always sort of a visual storyteller. Like I I was a photographer in high school I had found dark room I did a lot of cool stuff with with photography kept kept that going at at college and um, ultimately realized that I liked to do narrative storytelling that was related to science. so I so I wanted being a double major in um, in psychology and at vassar it was I guess there was 2 ways of looking at that sort of psychology and it might still be that way at at school. It was either like a soft science like a social science or a hard science. It was a very hard science at Vassar so did a lot of like the. The early 1 on 1 type stuff and I loved I loved that I think part of my brain is very into the hard science. You know, reading studies data you know evidence-based stuff but another big part of me is the the sort of creative narrative side and.
05:10.75
drnobodypodcast
Oh.
05:20.65
Jesse
Being a double major in in psych and film and um ultimately I decided to go to film school because I I wanted to write for Tv and there was a show that I had always loved called a house you guys probably probably know that show house and yeah.
05:35.67
drnobodypodcast
Oh heck, yeah.
05:39.35
Jesse
And every episode like multiple times I thought it was just kind of the perfect show. Great serialized differential diagnosis drama and um I wound up getting myself an agent um and going out to meet with 2 of the executive producers on the fox lot and. Things were kind of just going perfectly and I couldn't I didn't didn't realize sort of at the time. How amazing it was that I even got my foot in the door that way and it was just ah I guess so many things like this happened in life. It was 1 of those moments where the world just wasn't having it because that was when the writers built on strike. Think that was ah 2007 I want to say and you know so I basically talked to my agent. He was like yeah like everything sounded great like you know it's going going really well. But it's sort of a dead standstill until this this strike gets resolved and um I was like well how.
06:34.30
drnobodypodcast
And.
06:34.51
Jesse
Ah, how long is it going to take to resolve this strike you know like I'll wait around for a few days like I you know what did I know about like strikes and union stuff like nothing good. He's like no no, no, this is probably going to go on for like a few months I it what really like a few months it's like sort of 6 months minimum and it was oh man I can't.
06:41.93
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.
06:54.49
Jesse
Can't round like that you know so I went up going back to new york I was in l a at the time just for a few weeks like you know, couch surfing and um I was just flipping through like stuff that I could do in the meantime to to make money and. And some format that made sense for the education that I had which is writing and you know when you when you leave school with a degree in and writing or film. It can be tough to to find ah to find work so you know I I looked at advertising and I was like well how do they make these cool creative ads I always like that stuff like. Kind of seemed interesting to me and I wanted connecting with someone ironically at gray at the time who was ah a creative guy. The agency meant nothing to me I knew nothing about ad agencies or what they did and he was a writer at that point I think he had he had worked his way up to creative director and he sort of explained to me like what things were from the most. Basic level. You know I said like I what is a copywriter like I like writing what is the copy part have to do is like oh no like don't worry about the copy part. It just means writing means you write the stuff like he's like I don't know I don't know what copy means like you're not copying anything. It's original stuff. He I had no idea where a word comes from stuff.
08:02.23
drnobodypodcast
If yeah.
08:08.95
Jesse
And and I still to this day I couldn't tell you why it's called copy or copywriting I had no idea. Um, but when he explained it to me I was like well this is probably the next best thing that I could do to you know writing for television or film. So um, I'm gonna give it a shot and. He was like well that's awesome like we'd love to have you start? you know Mondays and something like that and I was are you kidding me like that's incredible I could have a job money's a no no, it's not a job. It's an internship. It's like you know, but but like I have rent and stuff to pay like I bet. He's like oh yeah, like no It's just an internship but ah, you know you could do that for a while. there's like there's a good chance. You could get hired like after a year or someone I can't do that you know so um I want going back to to look at the the alumni boards at vassar and I was like now I know what a copywriter is so I could like search for copywriter stuff. And I found this this guy who was posting you know for people who were interested in copywriting at a place called cbm and that was like 1 of the agencies that sort of invented healthcare advertising like back in you know the 80 s um and talked to this guy I get a lot in common from vassar and he gave me my first job. And the rest is sort of history. You know I I waited it out there I I loved it. I thought it was really interesting. It sort of tapped both sides of my brain the science and the creative part and um I you know I I Never really was interested in going back to. To the l a tv world because things were just sort of just kept my curiosity peak and kept me interested.
09:45.76
drnobodypodcast
Do you? So this the first guy who introduced you to copywriting right? and I am by the way. Also when I think of copywriter I thinks that somebody who copies the writing of somebody else. So it is very confusing term.
09:53.46
Jesse
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah is basically writer just call it writer. Yeah yeah.
10:03.74
drnobodypodcast
Um, he's got to change it at some point. But anyway, but yeah, it's a writer. Yeah, so was this guy would you consider him like a mentor. Do you still talk to him or were there any other mentors for you throughout your career.
10:13.45
Jesse
Yeah I've followed him for a little while his name was John callis and you know he's very successful. He came out with some cool stuff but we never really talked after that you know I first I sort of turned down the internship you know and in retrospect like knowing like what I know now about. World like I might have done that internship and you know figured out a way to get by for however, many months or a year until hopefully I could approve myself and gotten hired but it didn't none of it meant anything to me, you know, um, he he was ah he was an interesting sort of first character in that world. Um.
10:43.52
drnobodypodcast
Um.
10:52.14
Jesse
You know I've had partners like there's always a copywriter and an arc partner. Um, at least as you work your way up until you get to sort of create a director and beyond and at some point along that path you kind of go solo and and become the person who manages both sides of things. Um. But I've had art directors since the very beginning of my career who I who I'd consider sort of inspiring people who taught me and I learned from and you know we had great synergy and you know mentor is ah is a different kind of word but they. They fulfilled a lot of that function I Think as my as my peers. Yeah.
11:31.92
drnobodypodcast
Nice That's kind of like a theme throughout the podcast episodes that I have is always finding a mentor someone that can act as a mentor some sort of a guiding light of whatever you want to say but I think it's always important and to be fair, there are people that can do it without them.
11:38.66
Jesse
Sure.
11:48.73
Jesse
You know? and and I wouldn't say and I wouldn't say that that that's accurate I think that to be successful in advertising you have to have people that took an interest in you you know and in 1 way or or another and I and I think the reason why it works. So.
11:50.21
drnobodypodcast
We definitely have people. Yeah.
11:58.79
drnobodypodcast
Um.
12:06.67
Jesse
Well sorry, that's my daughter. It's ah it's getting near the witching hour. Um, so yeah, okay, put down that voice. My wife is there I Love you.
12:11.78
drnobodypodcast
Okay, that's Fine. Do you need? Ah you need a handle or if you need a little bit. Okay. Ah, a cute.
12:25.32
Jesse
But goodnight the nice thing about like the art director writer relationship is that you both kind of like rely on each other you need each other to be successful and I think that that dynamic is such ah, an interesting fun and critical component of advertising in general that you have this person who like. Your entire career and livelihood is very dependent on yeah you you can't do what you're doing without them. You can't get noticed. You can't be Successful. You can't do breakthrough stuff without Them. You can't succeed and fail without them. They become your your partner in every way shape and form like not excluding psychologically. You know when when you're going through long late nights and you know difficult situations and and the fact that that relationship is sort of built into the career of a creative I think is critical I don't know how I would be where I I wouldn't be where I am without that you know.
13:18.29
drnobodypodcast
Wow, That's I besides my role as a medical director and then my partner whose's Brand Stri is maybe we don't We're not that you know we're close but not that close like intimately close and I can't really think of an any other career.
13:35.10
Jesse
I can't either. You know I mean you know like I could I could imagine like in in a surgical theater like there are people that are critically reliant on each other but it's a different kind of thing you could sort of swap that in and out. It's not 1 specific person now I guess the next thing would be like a business partner.
13:35.13
drnobodypodcast
That has a partnership like that and.
13:54.57
Jesse
Like who you just sort of like run things with you know on every level.
13:56.27
drnobodypodcast
So you know why do you think a ah creative they have to have this partnership. Why is it essential right.
14:06.84
Jesse
It's so interesting like it's always sort of been the way it was but interestingly a long time ago in advertising it. It worked a lot more us a lot more of a separated way. So like you know if you went to like J Walter Thompson back in like the sixty s or whatever. Writer would literally write the ad copy like on a piece of paper would give it to a traffic person like they would take it to another floor to an art person. They would lay out the copy.. There would be no interaction. There was no like you know back and forth and in design an aesthetic and Creative. So I don't know when it happened but at some point.
14:37.54
drnobodypodcast
Um.
14:44.43
Jesse
Modern advertising changed to much more of a partnership back and forth dynamic with art and copy and and I think that a great creative needs that because they're always doubting themselves. You know they're they're always doubting themselves. They're always um, second -guessing ideas that they have and and I think that the relationship that you have with some.
14:59.25
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, so.
15:04.40
Jesse
Someone else and they're creative can not just give you confidence but pressure tests your ideas before the rest of the world does.
15:10.25
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, that's good and is there any secret formula to finding the right partnership because ah you know people try to find partners all the time and that doesn't always work out. How do you find that partnership or what's.
15:21.69
Jesse
Yeah, sure.
15:27.30
drnobodypodcast
What's ah what are important factors to identify those partnerships and.
15:28.39
Jesse
Um, I think the you know the most important thing ah above anything else is personality like you have to you have to be able to be friends with that person you you have to be able to imagine yourself like going out to have like a cup of coffee or a beer you know or a meal with that person and enjoying the conversation that you have you know. You have to be curious and I think the other person has to be curious too. You you can't well I guess taking a step back you you can't be a successful creative unless you're curious. There's there's just no way you know and if your partner's not a curious person. You'll wind up bouncing your head against the brick wall and that's that's It's not effective. You know it becomes just like the you know the j walter thompsons of the nineteen sixty s where like you're you're handing a manuscript to someone who takes it to someone else on a different floor except you're actually doing it in real time and that's that's the worst you know.
16:17.69
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah, when you say that I'm picturing um from madmen like how that those the episodes were and um when I when I watched those I was telling my wife like oh that's.
16:25.97
Jesse
Um, yeah, exactly.
16:34.20
drnobodypodcast
That's not what we do, but that's kind of what we do? yeah.
16:34.52
Jesse
Yeah, you're exactly right? But here like here's this department and this department you know then gets relayed to that department and it's very like ah you know, sort of process driven and like that part of the process in you know, modern advertising doesn't kick in until much later and I think that that's. That's critical otherwise the ads would all look you know destroyed and kind of like they did back back in the deck you know they're great classic ads from back then like brilliant copy and brilliant art direction. But they're very separated. That's the interesting that you could you could sort of pick those apart and say like oh here's like an amazing you know Volkswagen ad the copy is brilliant and like.
16:57.67
drnobodypodcast
Um.
17:13.71
Jesse
Cool picture but the copy is brilliant. You know or you can look at like you know some other you know, brilliant brilliant design ad and say okay, the design is amazing here. Yeah I don't really care about the copy. It's different now like it's very the same thing you know.
17:14.60
drnobodypodcast
Information.
17:26.77
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, so ah I want to talk about what we call in our industry the creative process. Um I can't define it as probably as well as you can so for the listeners.
17:34.87
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.
17:42.72
drnobodypodcast
You know, can you explain to them the creative process and then I have a follow-up question after yeah.
17:45.53
Jesse
Yeah, so there was um, this is great movie that came out when it's like ten years ago it's called art and copy and um I think it was I'm not sure it was widener kennedy but I think it was 1 of them was being interviewed in the beginning of the movie and I and I could be wrong. It could have been somewhere else. Said it. It was it was a brilliant thought um and it was that the most terrifying thing about being a creative is that you have no idea where your next idea is going to come from and that's absolutely true and and and I think that that's where the sort of magic of what we do and and the terror. Comes into play because no matter how much you plan or prep or learn or study a great idea kind of happens. Magically you know that there's there's a series of things you can do to increase the chances that's going to happen but it. No way is it guaranteed to happen the way you want it to and and I think that's how the creative process starts and and is so um, sort of energetic and scary and from there I think once you you have a great idea. The the rest of it kind of falls out. Naturally you you can look to different experts in fields whether it's you know channel engagement or a certain kind of writer or a certain kind of you know, designer to say how can I make this idea this concept sing in the real world. Those things can be can be planned and calculated and scientifically. Plotted out um and depending on what you're doing I think it changes the process but those those processes are all in place. That's not very interesting. The the interesting part is the magic that happens to get to that you know sort of spark in the light bulb. Yeah.
19:34.13
drnobodypodcast
That sounds terrifying because ah, thinking of writing my thesis from my Ph D There was a lot of you know, Writer's block and then when I have to design figures for my thesis I had it like I would just take days to do it and then in this.
19:37.60
Jesse
Yeah.
19:53.20
drnobodypodcast
In our job. We we can't take certain amount of time to to do certain things. Everything's on a timeline so you know I guess that's why we have teams and that's why when we do creative processes we bring in a lot of people so that at least 1 of those ideas may work right for.
20:08.32
Jesse
Um, 1 hundred percent and like I I can't stress enough that advertising is a a team sport like more so than anything else I can imagine I mean if people understood the number of people that make up a team that brings an ad to life.
20:15.26
drnobodypodcast
So.
20:27.80
Jesse
Regardless of the channel. It could be a simple print ad it could be a banner ad on on the internet. It could be a television ad it could be a booklet. It could be. You know some kind of experiential thing but the number of people that it takes to get from that sort of magic moment where the the great idea happens to execution is incredible. I mean it's it's. Dozens of people and and the work would not happen in the world without all of those people working well together and that's where a lot of failure points happen and I think that you know the teamwork that you have with these multidisciplinary groups of people is critical. It. It doesn't matter that you've you've had the idea or haven't. Because unless you have that great. You know synergy with these teams. It's not going to work.
21:11.28
drnobodypodcast
You know I I could definitely see it when I first started it was hard to see now in my going into my fifth year I 100 percent need that teamwork and you can feel it when other people are not. You know we're not all working at the same level or or.
21:25.46
Jesse
Um, sure. But. Um, yeah, it be.. It's a chey metaphor. But it's like a band if everybody plays a different instrument like if 1 person's totally off you hear that like you it ruins music you know and that's absolutely right for for what we do and that and that that's what's so.
21:30.94
drnobodypodcast
Vigor You know I don't know what the right word to say. But yeah.
21:47.64
Jesse
I guess continuously scary about it like people you know have to work well together they have to have the the right sort of things in place to to get the work done and to and to enjoy doing what they're doing and if 1 person's at a sync it.
22:05.50
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, so listeners teamwork is very important for this ah this world but you know just in general teamwork is vital I could be 1 to say that I hated working in groups when I was in college and and.
22:05.86
Jesse
Throws everything off. Um, out of it.
22:21.96
drnobodypodcast
You always have to pick up to slack but people do mature it gets easier when when people understand that everybody's ah I guess professional career or is at stakes at some points not that you get fired instantly. But you know if you if it sucks that bad I don't know that's that's Jesse's call
22:34.90
Jesse
Um, know what say no, It's not even about that. It's about like do you do you? Love what you're doing and again like everybody has to be curious. It's not just like you know part of the reason that I think I connect so well with you and people that generally I connect with are curious people. You're interested in things they look at they look at the world in ah in a curious way and and I think if you do that and if you're always looking at a situation to discover more about It. You'll be successful in advertising for sure the more you're interested in every little step. Ah, the way and all the things that you're doing and other people are doing just the fact that you're asking these questions like Dr Nobody like you know that makes you a curious person.
23:21.80
drnobodypodcast
That's fair. Thank you? Um, with a follow up to creative before we get into your your actually your actual managing director role. What would you have to? there's 2 questions. What would you say is the coolest piece of work that you have ever done. And what's the coolest piece of work that you've ever seen in terms of advertising.
23:39.61
Jesse
Who man that's such a good great question. So I don't know if there's 1 cool thing but 1 coolest thing that I've done There was an amazing print campaign that I did with ah an amazing partner. My my my favorite partner of all time. Ah, Bernardo romero um, and we did this ad called battle in the bone it was for bear and it it was all about drawing your attention. It was for doctors. It was about drawing your attention to the fact that when prostate cancer leaves your prostate the next place it goes is to the bone and that's where the real battle. For you as a doctor begins so it was this gorgeous piece you with all these stark characters and sort of bone colored Relief. You know, attacking out at the screen and and it and it won a lion and it was sort of internationally recognized and it was a breakthrough thing. Um that that will that would be up there.
24:33.48
drnobodypodcast
Sounds amazing. But.
24:37.46
Jesse
I think with favorite stuff of all time. Another thing I did was this awesome launch ad for a brand called mgality which treats migraine and the reason I love it so much is not because of any 1 particular execution. It's because of the orchestrated. Launch of the brand it was ah it was a big brand really breakthrough brand. It was a class of drugs called cgrps and it was 1 of 3 that was all sort of coming out at the same time that they prevented migraine which the breakthrough thing for people who suffer from a lot of migraines every month and the way that we developed a strategy you know from pre-launch through launch and post launch was ah was a really amazing thing and and I think the thing that I love so much about that is that the work was really good. It was really interesting. It was differentiated in in the pharma space. Broke through you know, not just in the other competitor competitors that we were dealing with at the time but in the entire pharma world and and then the metrics and metrics you know for for the the sort of listening your listening audience doctor know Budy is really, but. The data that proves that you were successful. We we were very successful with that campaign in a highly competitive space. It proved that the creativity that we used in this sort of very smart multi-pronged approach was very effective and we wanted to you know, sort of. Rising very significantly above the 2 competitors that we were launching against and I look at that as ah as a macro example of incredible advertising success. So so that stands out to me battle in the bone stands out to me and yeah I think those are the those are the 2 big sort of. Start contrasts from a lot of other things that you know I think are just fun. Good success stories. Yeah yeah.
26:30.74
drnobodypodcast
Sounds really awesome. Thank you for sharing that with us. Um, one last question before we transition for the listeners who are getting really excited like I am about creative process and being a creative person a writer and an or an art person besides being.
26:44.40
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.
26:49.44
drnobodypodcast
Ah, curious. What are what's another. How do you know? you're creative I would be like someone who doesn't know about this ability or just learning about it now. How do they know this is something they can do.
27:01.81
Jesse
It's a really good Question. You know I Um I never would have called myself a creative person specifically before I got to a certain point in my life like I did this. Photography thing in high school like I mentioned before and I loved it. But I never would have said I'm I'm a creative person I would have said I really like photography you know like I Really like this thing I think there's a point at which you realize that your mind. Coming up with things and you're imagining scenarios and solutions to problems in the world that are novel and when you realize that you're the way you think and the way you engage with the world and different tasks that you have in that world naturally leans towards novel solutions then. Then you can you can say you're a creative person and I think that's a lot more people than you or I would on the surface agree is is creative. It's not.. It's not just a writer.. It's not a photographer. It's not ah, an illustrator.. It's not a videographer.. It's a doctor. It's ah it's a you know a scientist. It's some other kind of scientist. It's ah it's every every businessman who's innovative and successful. It's um, a pilot. It's um, it's any number of people who solve problems in unique ways. That is a creative person.
28:31.36
drnobodypodcast
That that got me that's good I like it. Yeah.
28:33.64
Jesse
And it's it doesn't narrow that it doesn't narrow the answer like if you if you're asking. How do you know? if you're ah if you're going to be a good writer or and or an art director. That's a very different specific answer and I think you have to like to write like you know, just like in my story i. Love writing stories and that was a very natural segue into writing ads because add to our stories in shorter and shorter form. Um and a story you know at its core whether it's for entertainment or for advertising is meant to persuade. You. You know it's meant to pull you in Persuade you to make you feel something. And if you like making people feel things with storytelling then you're a writer like that. That's the most obvious example, um, if you like drawing pictures and you know ah or take or taking pictures or shooting video then then you're ah a visual artist. You might be an art director.
29:29.96
drnobodypodcast
Great I Mean that's awesome and I hope people wrote that down. Um I didn't really I did I You know to be honest to be fair I definitely expected a different answer but that was that was so creative I got to say because ah I know I.
29:37.86
Jesse
Um, yeah, ah no in your sex I'm curious.
29:49.45
drnobodypodcast
You know what? thank you I appreciate that that was good. Um, so let's transition to the the next half of the interview which is about your managing director role. Let's let's go right out the gate with this question when you were first offered.
29:59.58
Jesse
Um, sure.
30:08.21
drnobodypodcast
The opportunity to manage a company. What was your reaction. So.
30:10.35
Jesse
Okay, so um, when I was when I was offered this particular role. It was offered to me by and you've asked to like who are mentorism people that you look up to in life. But 1 of the people who stands out as as that person dramatically and in my recent career. Ah, current boss dana she's that she's the ceo of of the entire ipg health company. So when she when she reached out to me and she has this way of doing it. You know so that you just sort of it's so um, disarming you know I was very happy in my current role at gray. Um I worked with great people. She said like let's have lunch. And by the end of that lunch. You know it was sort of put out that um you know she thought I'd be a great person for this role and and the fact that she said that and thought that and had that confidence in me by itself was enormously persuasive because I had so much respect for her. So I think. To answer your question. She is ninety percent of the reason why I chose to to to shift you know jobs at that point in my career I had recently moved to gray. Um, and. And things were going well for me at gray. So there was no. There was no reason on my end to leave but I have so much respect for her as a person and so much faith and trust in her in her and her leadership that I I couldn't turn it down. It was. It was a sort of the stars had aligned and that was the moment for me to do it.
31:42.14
drnobodypodcast
That's incredible to and it's something. Um, so I brought Kevin who's my boss and part of the reason you're part of the reason why I came to this agency right. But the other reason was when I talked to Kevin and he was such a good leader and someone who I can follow that I'm like of course like I was also okay at gray and I wasn't actively looking, but it's it's really amazing to hear that there are people out there that you can follow and consider these mentors or role models.
31:58.76
Jesse
Totally.
32:13.79
Jesse
Um, oh yeah.
32:14.49
drnobodypodcast
Exist people think that they don't exist because somebody did make a comment to me about that was like no these people absolutely do exist in the real world outside of movies or Tv shows please.
32:21.25
Jesse
Yeah, and if you don't mind like I like I'll just say 1 more thing about that I think in the past like there are moments where you doubt yourself and you think like logically if I look at this situation. Well I've only been at this company for x amount of time like should I really do it like just because this 1 person the answer is yes. Like you you need to make the choices that you feel are the right choices, especially if they're driven by believing in a person that you're that you're moving towards to make that choice you you have to trust those instincts in yourself. Ah otherwise. Otherwise you will stay at a place for too long and and be miserable or you will. You will be disappointed in yourself for not having having made ah a jump like that earlier. Yeah.
33:06.99
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, no, that's ah, that's a good point and um, it's good to have people like that and it makes you feel more comfortable about leaving somewhere where you where you could trust someone that they wouldn't do that to you. They wouldn't as as you so could say it They wouldn't screw you over you.
33:21.24
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right? You're absolutely right? You have to trust people you know.
33:25.68
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, did you feel prepared.
33:30.23
Jesse
Yeah I think that that's a great question I think um I had been sort of I feel like I'd been groomed for that role for for several years even even when I left me and I feel like I was sort of being groomed for that role and I'm I'm very glad I left and I'll tell you why.
33:49.14
drnobodypodcast
Because you were at neon first right yeah
33:49.99
Jesse
Because it's I yes I was at Neon first for a little while but I was in the network for about 8 years and I was offered this opportunity to leave and have ah have ah an executive leadership role, another agency and I'm and I'm very glad I did because I think. Those moves regardless of how long you stay there. They give you perspective for for better or worse and teach you things that you can bring back to a role. That's a much more long-term role for you. You know so it sort of happens serendipitously that I wound up. Moving to a couple places before coming back to Neon. But I think it's a critical part of my skill set for being able to do what I do boom.
34:32.60
drnobodypodcast
And did you when you were groomy when you were being groomed for this position at the because that was my other question but you answered it already. Um at this other position did you have the intention to eventually you wanted to be a managing director or or some type of leadership role like that. Or it. It was nice that it came out from Dana who offered you that position for.
34:55.90
Jesse
Yeah I mean I think you know in advertising there's there's just sort of 2 things. There's There's this idea of proactive career management and and Dana and I So I certainly believe in that she certainly believes in that advocates for it and it's it's it's critical and there's also. Being recognized by someone who who you have a lot of respect for that pulls you into an in an elevated position I think there's tremendous value in both those things so I was certainly doing proactive career management and making sure that it was clear to you know people in positions of of. Leadership that I wanted to have you know a leadership role at at the right point in my career and it was also the pull of those people realizing that I was ready for that role and that it was the right time to put me in in that role.
35:47.31
drnobodypodcast
Got it so they they had that sense that you are ready for.
35:52.33
Jesse
Yeah I mean I I I have to assume that because that's sort of how it happened and and and I feel like um, you know you you would be very foolish to accept a role like that if you were being offered it if you if you didn't believe in yourself.
35:56.67
drnobodypodcast
He yeah. Ah.
36:12.10
Jesse
That you were ready.
36:12.13
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, that's interesting. You say that because I I was thinking about it but I didn't feel like there was enough to say it. But now there is and it's something that frequently comes up in these interviews in its imposter. Syndrome.
36:25.96
Jesse
Sure for ah hundred ah throughout my career I mean it still happens to me like on a weekly basis. You know I'll be in situations and I'll think I don't know what the hell's going on here.
36:28.23
drnobodypodcast
Have yeah, have you ever experienced imp posture since.
36:40.41
Jesse
And like you know there's that there's a belief that you know you you should fake it till you make it which I don't subscribe to um and then there's the alternative which is be honest with people and so like if you if you don't know what's going on or you know you think you've made a mistake tell people because. That's how you're going to get the respect of people that you know believe in you and that trust you and it's always been how I've trusted and respected people who I look up to.. They're honest with me, you know and they reveal their flaws and then and they reveal when they're right and they're wrong.
37:11.69
drnobodypodcast
I I have to say personally after hearing that you have experienced imposster and still do. It makes me feel better because I feel like I do it all the time. A lot of people I have interviewed even there are current jobs and you know famous people non-famous people.
37:18.26
Jesse
Um, all the time. Yeah.
37:29.92
drnobodypodcast
People hide it really well. But some people just don't know that they have it. So it's just like recognizing those the symptoms or the Hallmark appearances of imposter syndrome. But you know it's good that somebody in your role experiences it so it makes people like me nobodies feel better.
37:30.22
Jesse
Sure.
37:48.00
Jesse
Yeah, back for nobody I Think if you can I think it's a sign of success if you could be aware of the imposter syndrome that you feel because that that doesn't go away but you know as long as you can accept that that it exists and that you can live with it. Ah, that's that's perfectly fine.
37:49.78
drnobodypodcast
Um, that we can still.
38:04.71
drnobodypodcast
Now.
38:06.65
Jesse
Because anybody if they're being honest with you. You know in a position that's important has impostor spectrum for sure.
38:11.61
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, and I just want to highlight 1 more time. What you just said is being honest with people about it and I think people tend to hide it more 1 because they're embarrassed too like me I was scared I was scared that someone would call me out I Would you know i. You don't belong in this position or what you're doing.. It's just that fear of failing is it's it's crippling I got to say Um, thank you for that sharing that was definitely a side tangent but it just came up organically so I appreciate that? um.
38:33.30
Jesse
Totally other 1
38:44.60
Jesse
Course.
38:47.67
drnobodypodcast
Couple questions here before we get to the the final ones. What are some misconceptions about managing a company.
38:56.74
Jesse
That's that's a great question. So um I think 1 of the biggest misconceptions is that as a sort of an executive leader that you're the of. Last person to come to work and the first person to leave and like that that couldn't be further from the truth like so you know I know that like there's this idea that like you know agency leaders are like leaders of companies in general like like oh I could I could punch it out early. It's 5 o'clock my my minions will do this for me like in in reality as I work. Through each phase of my career I've just worked long run harder and and I think people have to realize that like in order to do this It's not just about having the skill and dare I say talent to do it. It's about having the work ethic. Every major milestone in my career that I've achieved when I've moved forward or had some great success story happen honestly, the answer to the reason why it happened was because I worked my butt off you know and I know that this is ah not an uncommon thing to hear but it's true and it's certainly true of me like i. The moment that I stop working you know myself really hard I think is the moment that I'll start failing.
40:12.17
drnobodypodcast
Yeah I think Hardware is a very cliche thing to say but it's going through my career as as ah, I'm still in my infancy phase but you know I definitely feel that you know the harder you work. And that can mean a lot of different things for different people. Yeah, maybe for some people it is clocking in early clocking out last or whatever but as long as you did something in that period of time instead of waiting for your boss to leave. But you're actually being productive or you're doing or growing or doing something else I think is important to highlight because.
40:37.81
Jesse
Um, let's say.
40:46.21
drnobodypodcast
There are people there will just sit I remember at my first company people would just sit around and wait until they're bossly I'm like why are you still here like well my boss hasn't left I'm like but what are you doing I'm just waiting I'm like okay that's great. Yeah I think it's just something that's been ingrained in people.
40:52.61
Jesse
Um, yeah, the make sense that makes no sense. You know.
41:05.44
drnobodypodcast
Like for a long time and it's I don't know it's a that's a great misconception I like that 1 Thank you are there any other ones or I mean that 1 ne's a good 1 is you don't have to.
41:10.21
Jesse
Snap. Ah, so the question is other ways that other things that are misconceptions about you know my job I No I mean I think that's ah, that's a big 1 I think you know the the other the other interesting thing to mention is that like i. I'm really responsible for everyone. So if you know if there's issues going on on a team or if you know someone's um, unhappy like that I take that really personally and I and I actually given you know s H I T if I'm allowed to even spell it out.
41:53.56
drnobodypodcast
That's fine.
41:53.75
Jesse
And I think that when you're when you're sort of running a place at whatever size that can be quite a burden because you you got a lot of people who you care about. So the idea that like people who run companies and and I'm sure there are a lot of companies like this where like oh people are expendable who gives it.
42:02.96
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
42:13.55
Jesse
Gives an s h I t like you know we can we can fire this group of 1 hundred or a thousand or ten thousand people and doesn't really matter as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line that's completely false you know at least for me like every single person matters and I would never change that for the world I think. Caring about people is what got me where I am in my career and it's part of who I am and for better or worse I won't be able to change that.
42:39.42
drnobodypodcast
How much of a burden. Do you feel with that I can't imagine you know I mean we have kids and managing kids is hard and then when they get hurt. You feel it but having hundreds of people that you care for like that I can't imagine you know your own mental health and.
42:49.57
Jesse
Um, totally.
42:57.73
drnobodypodcast
Things like that.
42:58.79
Jesse
It's like that and I think as long as you can look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say like I've I've done everything I can to protect this person make sure that they can be successful and have a good experience then I can sleep well at night. If I haven't and and at times in my career I feel like I haven't and I've made I've made mistakes then I don't sleep all at night you know and that certainly does happen.
43:21.63
drnobodypodcast
Got it? Yeah,, That's fair. So I want you to think about your own career when you're answering this question. How does someone prepare themselves. To become a managing director or a manager for a company at any point not not not a Ceo um because that's I feel like that's more of a path. There's different things a lot more years and different things are involved but to to you? What is the path. You think someone needs to take.
43:43.19
Jesse
Short look.
43:53.34
drnobodypodcast
Become a managing director.
43:53.48
Jesse
So I wouldn't I think it's it's really critical not to sort of take your life and try to lay it out and predict the future. You know all the way to the end because it's ah it's sort of a futile effort. Because you'll never be able to do bad like there will always be things that happen like for for me. For example, if I had done that my future would now involve me like you know, having been a show creator for a million different. You know, cool medical dramas that exist on network television like the world didn't have that in store for me the world happened. And I adapt it around it so you have to you could imagine yourself. You know until you die. But you also have to sort of pull it into a more micro perspective and think well, what's the next step. What what do I do to get to. You know this point in my career or even even this point in my life. And for me getting into advertising. That's exactly what I did it was kind of like I don't know if I'm you know I assumed at some point I'd probably get back into the tv writing or or movie writing. But for now I knew that if I did this other kind of creative writing I could have health insurance I could have you know steady pretty good paycheck I could have. Ah, group of really creative people that I could work with in a team environment that was very similar to what a you know writers room was like you know on on Network tv and just doing that and sort of letting myself be pushed along in a controlled way with a tide that that was you know I think. how how I got to where I am I I didn't start out as a copywriter thinking. Well 1 1 day I'll be a managing director. You know where 1 day you know I'll I'll be a cco which is a chief creative officer which is kind of similar. You know, um, it's it. It's just sort of where you wind up. If. That's where you're meant to be but as crazy as it sounds you know.
45:51.73
drnobodypodcast
That's fair, no, it's that's good. Yeah I think ah, it's almost like when people I remember in high school. There was this 1 girl She was an a plus student because she wanted to be a lawyer and that was like the path that she had to be. Is a plus student no matter what and then into college same thing and then she she just ended up being a nurse like it was just a totally different thing like her passion went a different direction and you know good for her I be still she needed good grades but I don't think you're really to be honest I don't really think you need a plus grades for really anything out there.
46:14.77
Jesse
Um, yeah, totally.
46:26.55
Jesse
Agreed and I certainly didn't have him like to be clear about that.
46:28.68
drnobodypodcast
Um, I mean either? Ah, yeah, all right? So here we are towards the end of the interview and I always ask the same questions to my people here. So the first 1 is. What's the best or worst moments in your life or your career and.
46:48.50
Jesse
Yeah that's ah, it's a great question I you know I think the best moments are when and again it's not like I can't point to a specific thing and say on this day for this particular time. This was the best moment in my life. It's this or my career. It's the same. It's the same. If you ask me like what's my favorite movie like I I have a sort of answer for that. But it's also like it's kind of a forced answer like there's 10 movies that I like equally you know and here's why I like them equally. Um when I've been most content or sort of victorious feeling in my career is when I can look around the room and see a bunch of people who are. Happy and successful and have celebrated something that is incredible effort which is the culmination of not just the hard work but luck there is a lot of luck in advertising but things have to come to get like the stars have to align and when that happens and when I've had any pardon. It's smaller or greater. These are incredible moments I mean really dynamic moments that change your life and I and I think it's it's a rush. It's a high you know it's like I've I've I've made this this moment the way it is and I've had a significant role in it and that's a very gratifying feeling and I think I'm very fortunate to have. Had a number of those you know and and on the same flip side. There have been a number of moments where I feel like I've let people down and then it's devastating Dr. Nobody I mean like I really can't express how devastating that is it's you know here's a here's a good example I'll I'll I'll give you I'll give you 1 when you pitch a piece of business you can calculate 2 hundred different things to increase the chances that you're going to win that business. You can have a brilliant strategy an incredible prep for presentation. The creative can be off the charts good and well executed and just brilliant and. By all objective measures. There is no possibility that another agency could have beaten that pitch and I mean that very seriously and I've had you know some of those and 1 happened pretty recently and you could be so confident based on the reaction of people in the room and all of those things that I just mentioned. But you're going to win that piece of business so much so that you you know you convince people you know I'm I think we're going to win I'm I'm sure we're going to win it and then because things that had nothing to do with all of the objective things that you plan for and the hard work that you put in you know, happened you don't win that piece of business. It's it's devastating because you've tried to control for so many variables and you've done it. You've successfully achieved these very difficult things. They've all all the stars have sort of aligned and in the ways that you can control them but they didn't align in ways that there's nothing you could have done anything about.
49:22.25
drnobodypodcast
Ouch, yeah.
49:40.36
Jesse
And that's why I didn't win the business and and I think when those things happen if you're not if you forget and I and I certainly this certainly happens to me from time to time and it did recently that there are so many variables at play that you can't control for and people believe that you couldn't have lost that pitch. Partly because of you that's devastating because I feel like I've let people down or misled them. You know.
50:03.74
drnobodypodcast
You know you're you're like the quarterback you know when the when the team loses. It's really falls on the quarterback a lot. Yeah I definitely have felt that feeling of the pitch and losing and but.
50:06.98
Jesse
Um, kind of going. It's yeah yeah, and that's and that's absolutely right? You know.
50:22.26
drnobodypodcast
Winning is just as good. Well, it's amazing. It's great feeling but yeah, losing sucks. Also in general I'm very um, a very competitive person. That's how I was raised I have like 20 plus cousins most of them ninety percent of them are boys so we he's very competitive. So I hate it.
50:23.68
Jesse
That's true. The Death. Sharp extract.
50:40.52
drnobodypodcast
Just me venting on that part. But anyway, um, thank you for sharing that the last question I want to ask you is what are 5 essential things you think you need to succeed in your life or career.
50:51.70
Jesse
Okay, so this is this is a great great question. Ah 1 of the 1 of the top and I'm not saying it's number 1 is a sense of Humor. It's high up there of these 5 You have to be able to laugh at things laugh at yourself more than anything else and and to. Be able to make light of a situation that is not very funny because that's the kind of thing that helps you move on and heal. So a sense of humor is super important. Um I think work ethic is also equally up there with with sense of Humor. You eat. If. You don't have that you won't be successful and I and I can't stress that enough even though you know like like we've talked about a little bit on on a number of different fronts. There are elements of luck that come into play for sure stars have to align for sure 80 to ninety percent of it is hard work and and you can't. You can't compensate any other way with that unless you win the lottery in which case the luck superseded the hard work. Um, let's see I think this is you know again a theme that we talked about you have to love people if you are the kind of person who doesn't. Really like to be around other people who and I'm not saying introvert or extrovert. That's not what I mean I mean like you have to really empathize and sympathize with people you have to care about other people deeply and not just if you're a creative person not just real people but characters like when I was when I was writing I loved. The character the protagonists that I made up and I loved the the evil characters that I made up and I thought about them all the time I thought what would you know? But what would Dr. nobody do in this situation. What would you know antown chagur from no country for for all men do in this situation. What would these characters who meant something to me. Even even though they weren't real. Do. That's critical. So that's 3 um, let's see 2 more I think you have to patience. No all that's okay I think patience is super important and I think that it's you know anybody who tells you that they're a a patient person.
52:48.44
drnobodypodcast
You don't have to make it sorry. Okay.
53:02.71
Jesse
And that comes easily to them is is lying as a leader I think that patience is a is a skill and you have to continually work on it. Master it and and and grow from it and then and then what is this is this four or five my next 1 Okay, so my next 1 is um, curiosity and we talked about that a little bit too like.
53:17.40
drnobodypodcast
It's four. Yeah, so.
53:22.53
Jesse
You have to care about the world and and be curious about it. You have to want to know more you have to never be satisfied with like well it's just because the way you know the way it is like you know little kids are always saying ah a why? why? why? it's like but it's always a why it's like a never ending loop like you have to be that kind of person you know, um.
53:32.53
drnobodypodcast
Okay, yeah.
53:42.26
Jesse
and and I think let's say fifth thing oh was good and have another gun more. But yeah, this is definitely the top 5
53:44.98
drnobodypodcast
That was a fifth thing. Yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah, no that those are great. There is definitely a theme when people when I ask this question to people but these are definitely novel So I appreciate that? Um, so on the sidebar I'm gonna start ending now.
54:03.48
Jesse
Um, yeah. Um, sure.
54:10.19
drnobodypodcast
I'm gonna ask you a question which is do you feel comfortable people reaching out to you if they want to have any questions is share reaching out to you on linkedin. Okay for them, you don't have to say you're linkedin I had 2 people say it I'm like guys you don't have to read out your Linkedin social handle. Yeah.
54:13.43
Jesse
Um, from. Sure.
54:24.63
Jesse
I don't know it besides my name. Yeah http colon backslash backslash linked it. Nine had no idea. Yeah yeah.
54:28.72
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, most people don't I don't know mine either. Um. Yeah 93 Yeah, all right? So yeah, I'll thank you. You know if you want to say anything Else. You can you don't have to and then well that that's a practice run because I haven't started what I was gonna say.
54:43.83
Jesse
No thank thank you for having me Dr nobody. It's been a pleasure is always talking to you. Ah good your I feel ready now.
54:53.76
drnobodypodcast
Ah, all right? good. All right here we go all right Jesse. Well I really appreciate all of the insights that you share with us today in the stories and generally being funny which is always needed in these podcast episodes. You know. Gets boring if you just hear someone talk the whole time. So thanks for your jokes once in a while. Um yeah, is it. Okay for the listeners to reach out to on any of your social media handlers. Okay so Linkedin works. Okay.
55:14.51
Jesse
Um, any time.
55:20.74
Jesse
That sure is yeah Linkedin is good.
55:27.23
drnobodypodcast
Right? Reach out to Jesse at his Linkedin if you have any questions or want to learn more. But jesse thank you again for being on the show. Um listeners I hope you gained plenty of insights today. This is the beginning of becoming a someone but specifically the someone you always wanted to be.
55:34.13
Jesse
My plow.
55:45.70
drnobodypodcast
Hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did please do give me a like review and subscribe you can also visit my website. The drnoypodcast dot com to learn more about my guests and listen to the episode again. Thanks again for listening to the Dr Nobody podcast where we turn nobodies to somebodies talk to you all very soon.