Dr. Nobody™ Podcast
Dr. Nobody™ Podcast
Episode 16 - To Be A Leader
We have them, we get annoyed at them, and sometimes we aspire to become them. I'm talking about leaders. A lot of us are better at taking directions from others but a small few of us want to become them. How do we get there? What do we need to do to prepare our path to becoming a leader? In this week's episode, we look at Dr. Fabrizio's life from his humble beginnings on Long Island to running an entire Medical Department at Marketing and Advertising Agency. He shows us what it takes to become a leader. But not just a regular run-of-the-mill type of leader, someone who others can follow, seek proper mentorship, and most importantly, someone who takes you to the next level!
00:00.00
drnobodypodcast
Welcome everybody to the doctor. Nobody podcast. Thank you once again for tuning in my listeners I appreciate your time Today. We have my boss from my company. Yes, it's kind of weird to have my boss on here. But it's going to be a lot of fun. Dr. Kevin fabrizio. Ah Dr. Fabruzzio can you please just give us the me the listeners a little bit about yourself your bio what you do you know What's up.
00:23.70
Kevin
Sure. Well first off, thank you Dr. nobody for having me here tonight to it's a real treat. This is actually my first interview ever which is you know usually I'm the 1 that's doing the interview and so it's really nice to to be on the other end of it. So and I apologize if I sound a little nasily but you know we'll get through this because this is.
00:35.49
drnobodypodcast
Nice, nice.
00:42.97
Kevin
You know something I was looking forward to for a while now. Um you know about me, you know so I am a um senior vice President medical strategy director at meon which is a promotional advertising agency. Um. I started back in. Let's see grad school. Um I got my ph d in microbiology and immunology from the albert einstein college of medicine. Um, that was in the bronx. Um, before that I got my bachelor's at syracuse university so you know born and raised really haven't left new york my entire life. And then after um, grad school did a short stint as a postdoc over at and nyu and then um began my career in in advertising went from 1 company of us was there for about. 5 years and then moved on to where I'm at now and where you're at now Carlos which is neon I've been there for Dr. Nobody sorry um, been there for about ah 6 7 years now so you know it's something that I never really thought that I'd be getting into.
01:37.56
drnobodypodcast
Dr. Nobody.
01:52.17
Kevin
You know it's it's it's just it's it's every day is news exciting I'm sure we're gonna talk about that in a little bit but just a little bit about me personally, you know, um, you know a loving husband a proud father of of 2 children. Um, you know what do I do in my in my spare time you know I don't have much spare time but you know I like to read you know I read Fantasy novels um, science fiction. You know both movies none of that none of that. No this is this is straight up roleplaying fantasy magicians and wizards and in the forest and whatnot.
02:15.74
drnobodypodcast
Like Erotic fantasy or or like fantasy I will kind of.
02:26.20
drnobodypodcast
Nice so sounds erotic to me. But that's fine.
02:27.83
Kevin
Um, you know those? ah that that and then um, you know we like to shop a lot. We'll go Out. We Travel We do a lot of these types of things so you know basically you know Nice quiet family Life. You know when it when it when when I get to do that.
02:46.11
drnobodypodcast
Nice. So I have a couple questions for you I guess the first 1 is about um what a postdoc is because it may not be familiar to everybody. What's a postdoc and did you feel like you had to do a postdoc because I know what a postdoc is so that's why I have a follow up question. But.
02:53.33
Kevin
Um, yeah.
03:01.20
Kevin
Um, me yeah.
03:05.14
drnobodypodcast
What's a postdoc and did you feel like the Postdoc role helps you prepare you for your current career.
03:08.69
Kevin
Um, yeah, so you know and this was about ten eleven years ago now. Um, when I graduated from graduate school I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Be honest, you the the normal transition was just going straight into a postdoc which is basically the work that you did after you graduated basically postgraduate work to get more experience right? And the idea was for you know, really everybody thought that you had 2 paths when you were in grad school. You either went to academia. Which was getting your postdoc or you go into industry which is basically working in the pharmaceutical company labs. Um you know and I did it and you know and we'll get into it I think later on when we talk about you know the the different things in my career that kind of made me who I am um. Again I wasn't really sure what it was I wanted to do after I graduated and I didn't feel like I was set up in grad school or maybe there wasn't just enough programs or there just wasn't enough visibility to say this is what you can do with a ph d I know like they have that stuff all over the place now. But. Back then I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do? Um, what are all the different options and maybe back then there just wasn't that many options you know when I when I look back at it. It's like you know were these positions even a thing back then you know I mean it was only ten eleven years ago, but a lot has changed in in that time. So you know did a postdoc set me up I think some of the things that I learned about myself set me up for success in my career. Um, you know because now I'm in a completely different career I'm not at a bench anymore I'm working you know in a actual advertising agency. So you know I think some of the things that that that I've learned about myself as. Person of of what it is I really want out of life I think that's what the postdoc set me up for.
05:03.18
drnobodypodcast
I Feel like I I can relate as well I knew when I went into graduate school doing my Ph D I did not want to do academia either. But I didn't know what else there was until I got closer to graduating I got into programs and they introduced me to different things and.
05:12.67
Kevin
Me.
05:22.11
drnobodypodcast
What I'm starting to hear from other people as well. Is you go into doing a Ph D because that's what people do They just go to the next level and they just want to do it but it doesn't mean necessarily. They know what they're going to end up doing at the end. Some people do. It's fine. Um, but you know the statistic is that most people don't even do Ph D or finish it.
05:28.36
Kevin
Um, Tim. Yeah I.
05:41.58
Kevin
Um, yeah, yeah.
05:41.88
drnobodypodcast
About like 1 to 2 percent of the population actually completes a ph d so it's it's a big um a big landmark in your in anybody's life that can do it? Um, so before you mentioned like you really? Ah, you didn't really know why you were getting into advertising. Is this something it trickled in as you were getting in there and you got more excited as you progressed or was it something that you read about and you were like yeah I'm going to do that based on I don't know something on Linkedin or resume ah like a website or whatever.
06:05.36
Kevin
Are.
06:11.70
Kevin
Yeah I don't remember where I found the job posting. It might have been on linkedin but it was for a medical writer job and I didn't know what medical writing was um, you know as I kind of read more about the job description I was like I think I could do this like. I've written articles onmp published you know in in in you know for for my you know graduate career. So I published a number of articles is it the same thing you know I didn't know. Um so I applied that yeah interviewed got the job and kind of was thrown into it. You know and and I was being expected to. No certain things and it was scary. It was definitely scary at first because it was like wow this is completely different I was making like powerpoint presentations right? I never did that I mean I did that but it wasn't you know for it was for my own research. It wasn't for somebody else's for like a speaker program or anything like that. So you know. I was doing that and I wasn't very good at first I mean when I set my own standards I said no this isn't good I could do better so as time went on and I said okay you know I'm learning this I'm learning this I found a couple of mentors people to kind of teach me show me the ropes. And I think these were like account people. These weren't even like other medical folks. There's account people and I started getting better and better and better and then I moved up kind of moved up the ladder and what you know what excites me the most is that you know every day I'm learning something new. You know i'll. You know 1 day I'm working on a topic dermatitis the next day we'll get something you know in that for a disease I never even heard of you know that maybe affects like a thousand people in the world and and you're like wow you know, constantly learning. You know we get, you know we get paid to have fun because I think the job is fun. You know and and when.
07:48.93
drnobodypodcast
M.
08:00.56
Kevin
You know when when you're getting paid to to just learn about different diseases and how you're gonna you know, educate. You know so different audiences on this disease I think that's just so it's so Attractive. It's just you know it's mind boggling that this was something that I didn't know about back in the days and maybe it's because I wasn't set up. For that type of path I think you know my path was different back then and there was definitely a situation where I had to kind of create a completely new path from the path that was already decided for me, you know because I do think we all have our own paths that are kind of already there but I kind of had to break that path and I kind of had to make my own and that's.
08:39.36
drnobodypodcast
So you figured it out on your own. Basically.
08:39.77
Kevin
Really what I did yeah you know and that's that's a story of my whole life is really just figuring things out on my own. Um, you know for a number of reasons but I kind of had to from you know the time I was I would say 1314 on I had to figure things out on my own. You know the thing by doing that though is.
08:58.89
drnobodypodcast
Sure yeah.
08:59.11
Kevin
You know it takes you a little bit longer to to get to where you need to be so you know sometimes I'm still a little rough around the edges I could wish I was a little bit more polished but that's okay, it's just still. You know every day I sleep well at night and every day I wake up and I'm like I'm proud of what I have what I've accomplished the team that I have. And what it is that we're able to do every day so you know it's okay, having to you know teach yourself how to do things How to you know, kind of go out there on your own. It can be scary but it's worth it because and that's what I did I took the leap and you know and. You know what's that saying from you know the end of Willy Wonka you know what happened to the kid that you know wanted everything or wish for everything and he got what he wanted. That's kind of what I'm living and you know it's It's a fun ride.
09:46.11
drnobodypodcast
Nice and a lot of the times it comes up about mentors during this podcast and interviewers that I do. It's really interesting that.
09:52.59
Kevin
Damn okay.
10:00.25
drnobodypodcast
Basically at this point it's like half half people had mentors. Some people didn't I had mentors that guided me um, what kind of mentors did you have or advisors and were these people that you know you did mention like account people who are totally non-scied some of them may understand the science but not so the complexity that we do. But.
10:03.53
Kevin
Are. Are near. Um, and so I would say you know in terms of my life. Well well, we'll start with my career I think you know the the first person that really took me under their wing was the lead account person.
10:19.82
drnobodypodcast
What kind of mentors did you have throughout your life or your or your current career journey.
10:35.48
Kevin
Or you know my first job and I don't know what it was she just you know gravitated to me. You know she was. You know she's been in the business she but she was in the business probably for like you know 40 years 3040 years so she was seasoned. You know in terms of you know agency life and she knows all the ins and outs and she knows all these people but she kind of took me under under under her wink and I don't think she ever. Realized that she did that and and what it meant to me. She told me that her mentor had this expression of when the you know we're not going to curse. But when the crap falls down rolls down the mountain. Are you gonna be able to catch it and her response was with both hands in.
11:07.59
drnobodypodcast
M.
11:13.46
Kevin
And this day that still sticks with me because it's like that's what you're doing every day you know the crap is fallening down the mountain you got to catch it. You know you got to catch it. You know, get out of its way or or or block it. You know and and and grab it and every day you grab it, you know and that's what kind of keeps you forward. Keep moving you forward so she was like really my my my first mentor and I don't think she ever realizes or you know I don't keep a touch of her but because she she retired and I don't think she realized what what impact she had on me because she kept me going. You know she said to me 1 she's like Kevin 1 day you're gonna run an agency. Um I mean that's not gonna happen because. I don't want that to happen. But you know when when I look at where I am now you know it's just you know it's pretty remarkable. Um, you know heading up in the department and like wow you know I never never would have thought this um you know then for a while I didn't really have any true mentors I didn't have anybody you know cassen she left and I didn't really have a true mentor. Had supervisors and there's a big difference between a mentor and a supervisor supervisor or somebody that basically you know signs you checks. Um a mentor is somebody that you know it's not about the money. It's not about the work. It's it's really about you and you know I didn't really have anybody for a while invested in me. invested in. my growth and invested in you know you know my my advancement because I moved on I moved on to to neon and I found that again and I found that Mentorship. You know little ups and downs and you know I had different supervisors for a while but now I landed on you know, having another supervisor now who I consider a mentor again. You know she's she's me and you and and you know her? Um, you know she's made a huge impact on you know the team on the agency and has really been that person that I can kind of go to and say like I need help or you know I need guidance and you know I'm not judged by asking questions on that. Judge if I x questions that I think might be a little bit you know elementary and I should know the answer. You know it's nice having that again. So you know once you find that I think that's what you need to hang on to.
13:15.33
drnobodypodcast
So yeah, it's good. Ah, that doesn't come along too often, especially nowadays and a lot of people are out for themselves and people are that because of that people just don't want to reach out to other people for for that help. Um, now you let's get into your career because that's.
13:18.40
Kevin
And.
13:27.84
Kevin
Okay, yeah.
13:34.82
drnobodypodcast
That's really what I want to hear about and the listeners as well. How did you manage to get to where you are and I mean to me it's a pretty fast timeframe you know, did you get set up for it. Did you just set yourself up because it sounds like you have what it was like to.
13:43.31
Kevin
I know.
13:50.98
Kevin
Yeah.
13:53.80
drnobodypodcast
Get to this point and your feelings about being head of a department and then I have follow-up questions after that. So.
13:56.33
Kevin
Um, so was serendipitous I think it was you know I was at my first agency and I didn't really progress fast enough you know for whatever reason you know I don't know if it's just that they just don't promote fast or. They didn't recognize value or whatever so you know and this is not the disparage them I mean they they you know I got my foot in the door with them. But you know when I see that my career isn't going where I want it to go. You know it's it's time to move on so they gave me a wonderful opportunity. I'm always going to cherish that but you know when I came over to to Neon. that's where I saw trajectory and that's where I saw um you know me being in positions that are more you know tougher you know because you take it on more responsibility but more rewarding and I don't mean monetary I think it's just you know the more responsibility they have the more it's like right? I trust you. You know and you talking we talking about Senior leadership. It's like yeah you know he can do it so you know it it was 1 of those things where you know I joined and then you know the head of department was here for about a year and then they left moved on to another agency and then they brought in somebody else and that person left. Then they had somebody else kind of overseeing and then they left and then it was just me left. But um I was there long enough and I picked up enough of the qualities that it took where they finally just said all right? Kevin now it's your shot right? and I've been at it I don't know. 3 years now has had a department and what I loved and you know I won't mention names. But you know, somebody said to me, you know because I thank them for this opportunity and they said Kevin that's because we reward loyalty and I think that's what it is and I know we're going to go into the 5 things and you know traits or or whatever. Loyalty to me is is is the biggest thing and I don't necessarily mean loyalty to the company loyalty your boss loyal to you know anybody. But it's being loyal to yourself, you know, knowing that if you're in a situation that you know you're not happy with move on or make that situation better. But what I kept doing was just made that situation better because there was a lot of things you know working against me, you know, not having that supervisor having different supervisors. You know, kind of being on my own. Um, but I kept plugging forward. You know was like that. What's that you know I use quotes a lot but you know that rocky balboa quote. It's not how hard you get hit. It's how hard you get hit. You know we keep moving forward and strip. You know so I took a lot of hits and moving forward and you know I was I've been rewarded by. You know, an amazing company of you know, really you know here his his his department and you know something that I'm always going to be thankful for.
16:40.75
drnobodypodcast
So do you think you have the right skill sets currently or you feel like you're still growing as a leader.
16:46.92
Kevin
I Think everybody in a leadership position never has all the skills I think you're constantly learning and I think that what makes a true leader a leader you know you're not. If You think you're coming in thinking that you have everything that it takes to lead then you're not a leader you think you're a leader you know you have the title but that doesn't mean you're a leader you know I think what I see of what I think a leader is is somebody that rolls their sleeves ups and is doing the work that they used to do 10 years ago. You know which I like to think I still do I try to do it? Um, but no, we're constantly learning. You know you're constantly learning and you have to learn you have to adapt you have to grow you have to adapt as your team grows and as your team adapts. So yeah. No I Don't think I have everything you take shit.
17:39.77
drnobodypodcast
What is it? What kind of feelings. Do you have when you think about that you have a team that depends on you to grow to to run basically their brands their drugs that they're on.
17:48.38
Kevin
A.
17:55.58
Kevin
Yeah, yeah.
17:58.18
drnobodypodcast
And knowing that if things happen that it kind of falls on you because you're the leader. How how is that feeling I've never I don't know it personally so you know can you can you share that feeling or that burden.
18:01.43
Kevin
Um I like to surround myself with people that are a lot smarter than me so I don't have to worry about that. You know.
18:18.65
drnobodypodcast
That's fair.
18:19.67
Kevin
And it's true, but it but but but it's true. It's like you know, knowing that I have such a strong team I don't worry at night about you know when I go to sleep I'm might I'm up at night worrying if you know they're not goingnna be able to make it happen. They're not gonna be able to get the job done because I know everybody that is on the team is gonna be able to do it. Um, you know I worry about other things but again knowing that I have such a strong team that you know it's not something for me to worry about when you become a leader when you become a department head. It's not about you. You know and that's what I learned like you know going up, you know going up in the in the ladder is about me. About what do I need to do to get to that next level once you get to this level. It's not about me anymore. It's about the team so by putting the team first all the time it kind of makes things you know a little bit easier because they don't have to really worry about myself anymore. It's like all right? you know. That stuff is just kind of like it's there and I'll figure it out later but my day revolves around the team. You know the team needs me I'm there you know so it's I've had men I've had supervisors that you know it was more about them and less about me. And all I've been doing is the opposite of that you know that's kind of where I learned to be I hope to be an effective leader is just doing the opposite of what this person was to me and it was more of you know for them. It was I I but that's not really how it works. You know it's about them them them. And live by that every day so far. It's working I think yeah I try and go trying.
19:55.40
drnobodypodcast
And yeah I would say it. It does as being a part of your team. Um, what struggles have you faced in your career and you know in your career and getting to the point where you are a leader Now. Um. What have you faced any struggles any situations that have been hard on you in your getting there to the point where you are now or even now at your at the position you are now for.
20:24.67
Kevin
A.
20:30.11
Kevin
I would say you know struggles I mean the biggest struggle that I've experienced not just you know, not really in my if this answers to questions. It's not professional. Career is more of the academic you know career it was you know. That Postdoc where I knew I didn't want to do benchwork but now I'm in a position where I'm wasting somebody time I wasing somebody's money and I feel really bad about it and I wasn't sure how to get out of the situation. So You know that ended. And for a while again I didn't know what I wanted to do and that was fine. It was scary but it was it was fine. That point I think is what really defined me because it was like all right now I got to figure out what I want to do you know. That was a struggle because I didn't know what I wanted to do I Was you know when when you're when you're you know you're in your Ph D. You're kind of pigeonhoed. It's like all I know how to do is bench Work. You know how? Ah how do I How do I use this so that was a struggle of trying to find out exactly what I wanted to do.
21:36.80
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, so.
21:44.91
Kevin
You know in terms of the you know more professional career. You know I think it was finding talent. It was finding people that you know trust me to you know to be on my team you know and not necessarily that they didn't want to work with me. It was just finding that people you know there's people out there. But. It' finding the right people you know that was always a struggle That's a constant struggle for you know for any any manager is finding that talent. Um, that's kind of.
22:12.91
drnobodypodcast
Well let's talk about that finding that talent I think the the listeners would be interested to hearing from your side as someone who is interviewing people and hiring people. What are the kind of the qualities that you're looking for in someone not not just their.
22:18.19
Kevin
Are yeah.
22:30.80
drnobodypodcast
Ah, skill set that's needed to do the role but beyond that and.
22:31.89
Kevin
Yeah I mean I look for somebody First off that doesn't take themselves too seriously because you can't you just you just you just can't you can't and you know in times like this you can't take yourself too. Seriously, you know you have to you have to come in every day you got to laugh. You got you got a joke you know I wake up every morning I said it's gonna be a good day that lasts maybe an hour but you know at least I try right? but you got to you got to? you know you got to be somewhat positive you know and I know that's hard but you know I tend to look for that I look for more outgoing.
22:53.72
drnobodypodcast
Um, yeah.
23:08.61
Kevin
Personalities and and and not that being Introvert to Problem. You know it's not but you know we're in a situation where you know we we you know we work with clients. We do pitches very high profile pitches with you know top pharmaceutical companies. Got to have somewhat of a dynamic personality I mean yeah, you know people say well you're the medical Guy. You know you don't really need to um you know, be that engaging What? not but that's not True. You know a lot of times. It's the medical person that comes in and just wows the client. You're like oh my God like look at this you know we weren't expecting this. You know, usually the gift's creative.
23:39.83
drnobodypodcast
Four mm.
23:43.26
Kevin
Sometimes the account person but you know when when the medical person comes in and just kind of dazzles them. It's like oh wow so I kind of look for that I look for that somebody that can have a conversation you know, um. You know I don't have I I don't need to say that they have to be smart I mean we all have advanced degrees by default. You know we're already smart but you know somebody knows how to manage their time somebody that knows that like this is our job. This is what we got to do anything else. You know let somebody else? do it. You know. 1 thing to go above and beyond in your own job. But I really like look for people that can kind of manage their time you know on their own and I don't have to like because I don't like the micromantch and I don't but somebody that says to me look Kevin I got this and this is how I'm gonna get it done. You know somebody that's coming in that has a solution already to their problem. Um, I'm there to help obviously but I love when people come in and is more proactive about things.
24:41.57
drnobodypodcast
In terms of thinking on the same topic of a person trying to get you know into the game right here. How do they based on your experience. How would they set themselves up to get to maybe a position like yours like what do? what do you think it takes are.
24:46.61
Kevin
Is it.
24:56.54
Kevin
Um, and.
25:00.64
drnobodypodcast
What do you think they need to do to get there for.
25:01.40
Kevin
Um, yeah, you know you need. 1 of my old supervisor called me a bulldog and I really think that's what it is. You know it's not There's no 1 trait There's no 1 thing that you can learn that's gonna set you up a success here. It's it's not like. Ah I know how to write publications or you know I know how to do powerpoint presentations. That's not it. That's that just that's just a 1 part of our of our of our jobs. It's I mean you mean you know how it is. It's it's it's getting into the Weeds. It's sifting through. Large dreams of data and finding the solution and finding you know making the science sexy the lack of a better word and just you know making sense out of the nonsensical because you're looking at numbers right? that doctors don't really care right. What does it really mean to patients. What is this really gonna mean to doctors. You know it's it's finding those was nuggets. It's finding that medical hook that's going to make this exciting. You know that's really the things that kind of set you up and that's hard and that's hard to learn and that's something that does take years. You know like I said I started as a writer making powerpoint presentations that didn't set me up for anything that just was like ah you know having a ph d I would say puts your mind in a different way. You know it kind of you know because we're forced to think our brain is rewired I think during grad school. Kind of think a certain way so you know I've been trained to think very analytical and because of that I'm able to look at things a little differently so it's hard. It's hard to just pick this up and say ah this is what I want to do because it takes time you know it takes determination. Takes patience I think more than anything you know to get to where I am now it took you know you take about 17 years so let's say almost a decade you know and that's about average I but I would say to get to get there so you know it's it's. It was a wild ride. You know, but again it it was something that you needed to kind of go through it was trial by fire. Sometimes you know, but now I'm in a situation where I don't get into the science as much as as I was like to it's funny because I was watching a video of an old mentor of mine Supervisor really and you know he says now that.
27:40.56
Kevin
He uses a pi. He's like now that he's running a lab a large lab. He's not he hasn't touched the pipeette in years right? He he's in his office. He's writing grants. He's doing administrative work. He's h r he's kind of running a small company and that's kind of almost how I feel. You know you deal with you know interpersonnel issues you're dealing with Scopes. You're dealing with a lot of different things that I've never learned before you know so that's where you kind of have to seek out other people. So like if we're talking about you know scopes which is basically how many hours a person's going to get on a piece of business. Um, to know like how like how like what percentage of their time they're gonna dedicate to this piece of of work for the year you know nobody really taught me that so I sought out account people I sought out you know people who you know finance people say hey teach me about this. So. it's always asking you know it's always questioning that's you know it's I'd say if you had to do anything It's always question. You know, Mr. that's good. Yeah.
28:38.66
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah, I feel like ah that's come up in 1 of my interviews as well is just being more proactive than reactive because no 1 no 1 ne's going to be your biggest advocate than yourself.
28:46.49
Kevin
Are.
28:51.75
Kevin
Um, yeah.
28:54.80
drnobodypodcast
And trying to push yourself to do more and go beyond what you're being asked for shows that you're motivated. But additionally that you want more so they can you can get to the top. Essentially so I think though those are really important questions. Um.
29:02.63
Kevin
Um, you know what dip.
29:10.22
drnobodypodcast
I'd be remiss to not ask this question since you do have a Ph D and I feel like a lot of people deal with this and it sounds like maybe you did but have you ever experienced imposter syndrome throughout your Ph D or even now in your in your career.
29:25.27
Kevin
Can you define that.
29:29.26
drnobodypodcast
That's fine I'll delete this part imposter syndrome is where you have the feeling that you don't belong or you shouldn't do what you're doing because you don't you don't have enough enough of the skill sets or the knowledge to do it. But even though you are in it and someone thought you could so you just feel like you can't. But it's a feeling of of negativity to something. Maybe you never experience it. That's why you don't know what it is. But oh that's great. Then I'm going to delete this whole section. Um I'm going to ask you again just to have it on the podcast and then um, now that you know the definition because that we did have an episode.
29:51.82
Kevin
Um, yeah I don't think I've experienced that. Yeah I don't think I'm experienced. Yeah yeah I have't know yet enough. Yeah yeah to So it's it's.
30:07.76
drnobodypodcast
But.
30:10.15
Kevin
So I would feel that I wouldn't belong in a certain situation because I have a ph. Yeah.
30:16.62
drnobodypodcast
I'll tell you an example. So I already had I had caroline talk about her imposter syndrome and then I have an episode where I talk about Mine. So basically when I did my ph d the whole 4 years that I did my ph d I feel like I didn't belong even though i. Powered through it and I completed it but I just never thought that I could do it and 1 people are my boss was negative but 2 I just felt like this is not what I was supposed to do I keep messing up I'm not doing well. But I I only see the negative aspect of it. Um.
30:46.69
Kevin
Um, oh that's what it is and absolutely yeah, let's do this again.
30:51.48
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, so like what I was insinuating based on what you've been saying I thought you would have like you know you feel like you don't have the skill sets to to do? Yeah I mean there's I don't know ah another way of of defining it. But that's basically imposter syndrome.
30:57.37
Kevin
Um, ah I didn't realize what it meant? yeah.
31:05.74
Kevin
Are.
31:08.00
drnobodypodcast
And most graduate students like I think it's a high of like eighty to ninety percent graduate students experience it and then when I joined the agency world I suffered through it even now sometimes when I do the like the unmet need thing I did with camobi I feel like I couldn't I wasn't capable of doing it. But obviously I figured it out.
31:11.71
Kevin
Now.
31:20.53
Kevin
Um, yeah now. Yeah, all right? So was a yeah yeah, that's all.
31:25.85
drnobodypodcast
That's imposter syndrome All right I'm gonna reas you all here we go I went until you finished the wrapper. So what I want to ask you and I'd be remiss not to ask this question based on what I've been hearing and maybe the listeners are are thinking about it based on the other episodes.
31:44.74
Kevin
Yeah, yeah I have um my academic career for the most part wasn't very positive. Um, you know I looked at everybody else when my peers around me and they would just.
31:45.20
drnobodypodcast
Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome.
32:04.65
Kevin
You know whip and by they were just incredibly successful. Um, you know it took a lot of determination dedication back then dedication that you know it was hard for me to find because I knew I was in a situation where I didn't want to be there I didn't want to do this anymore but I had the power through it. Um, and there were times where people they even said to me Kevin I don't think this is right for you. I don't think this is it and that fueled that that that that that started a fire inside me and I said no you know if it's when somebody says to me, you can't do this now. I'm gonna do the opposite.
32:28.00
drnobodypodcast
Oh wow.
32:42.59
Kevin
Um, you know that was just academia in terms of you know, professional career I mean sure you know we're talking to. You know we get introduced as doctor this doctor that you know, but you know we're we're dealing with medical doctors. So when I you know I and I interview a lot of medical directors. Met a lot a lot of medical doctors I never I never faced anyone say well you know you're not ah, you're not an m d or a ph d but you always get the sense that you know it's like you know, does this guy really you know is this person really kind of feeling you are they really. You know are are they are they judging you so the way I kind of flipped and that was early on and in my in my career where I was kind of you know, green and I didn't really know what I was doing now I'll go in to any meeting acting as if I belong you know as acting as if I'm supposed to be there. You know whether it's.
33:17.82
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
33:37.17
Kevin
You know, being part of the conversation whether it's demonstrating that you have command of the the you know the the literature you have a command of the data. You know there's no way they can question you. There's no way you know so yes I faced it. Part of it was probably my own doing because that was just me part of it is just I think just you know the the position that we're in and you know we are ph d you know sometimes talking to Mds and you know other you know health care professions where you know. Ph shes doesn't really you know I mean where're where we' where research scientists you know let' face it. But we're talking to you know people that actually work with patients. Um, you know you always kind of feel like are you are you getting judged are you getting kind of questioned so that's why I kind of go in act in if yeah I belong here you know.
34:33.59
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, it's a bold strategy I like it I'm sure it works Ninety nine percent of the time. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, just hit the emergency buy and you guys got an emergency. Um, what gets you.
34:34.81
Kevin
Works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but does that 1 percent that it's like I do I want to do this? Yeah yeah.
34:53.32
drnobodypodcast
Up in the morning. What gets you really excited about your job or about what you do that? You're like I'm up I'm gonna go do this.
34:58.80
Kevin
Are.
35:04.11
Kevin
I mean 1 is just the workload I mean that's just you know there's there's a lot that I got to do but 2 it's and it goes back to what you said earlier is that I have a group of individuals that you know is looking for my support is looking for my guidance. If it was just me all right? may I stay in bed an extra half hour. You know, but knowing that I have a lot of other people that do rely on me and not just you know the team but you know obviously there's an entire agency that looks to me to make some decisions. It's like all right I gotta get up you know and I get up because I want to get up. I don't get up because I have to get up I get up because I want to knowing that hey who's gonna happen today. You know is it gonna be a good day. Is it gonna be a tough day. You know what kind of day is gonna be it's it's gonna be a day that that that's all I can say um, but knowing that when I get to my computer and usually I'm I'm at my computer pretty early but like. You know, knowing that everybody gets on usually around nine I 15 and you know the messenger starts up and emails come in and you know I start getting questions from the team and what not like that's what that's what drives me because it's like that's what I enjoy doing you know the day to day like you know, busy work that I do it's like you know I got to do it you know but that kind of work takes me away from career development. You know of the team of helping them move forward. You know I you know the 1 on ones that I went on ones that I have with the team that's really important to me. You know I see those as therapy sessions not just for them. But for me as well because. You know it's it's it's just it's just a way to get to know the person. It's a way for me to kind of interact with them on a level that I may not normally be able to do when there's other people in the room or you know on the call you get to know the person you get to know really what you know where they're coming from the more I get to interact with somebody the more I can help them. With the issues that they're having if I don't know somebody is hard for me to do that because it's like I don't know I don't know you I don't know what you're like the more I get to know somebody the more I can help them. You know provide guidance you know offer support that type of thing so that that's what gets me up really man.
37:05.16
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
37:12.76
drnobodypodcast
That's motivating to hear. Ah yeah, that's what I figured I felt I felt that was coming. Um so I always ask the same questions to everybody and I would like to hear what you have to say so in terms of your career.
37:15.60
Kevin
It's up for you. Okay, yeah. Are.
37:27.97
Kevin
Just a.
37:29.80
drnobodypodcast
Or your life. Whatever falls or you want to talk about both. What are the best and worst moments that you've had I want I want the listeners I Always say this to them I Just want them to hear that the people on the other side of this mic are human right.
37:34.64
Kevin
Now.
37:45.60
Kevin
My entire my in my life or the career or yeah.
37:48.76
drnobodypodcast
Or both or maybe they encompass both. There's been definitely examples of that I do do we gotta do.
37:56.68
Kevin
We're gonna get dark now. So what defined me as a person I was probably I think 13 irteen or 14 my father left just basically abandoned us and you know I had a little brother. He was I think 7 and or 8 maybe younger and there's my mom. There was just the 3 of us of my grandmother upstairs and I didn't cry didn't shed a tear you know I mean I was still prefer fairly young, um haven' woken my father since then I don't know he is but. It's when I became an adult you know I was a 13 year old you know entering my teenage years I should be out and having fun and whatnot and I couldn't and I had to say all right I have to cut the grass I have to do this I have to make sure the garbage is taken out I have to get a job I have to go to school I have to. Make sure. Everybody's taken care of right? Um, that point in my life that was you know that was really the turning point that was the inflection point you know I've had 2 inflection points in my life and that was the first one you know and that's where it was like. It was time to step up it was time to take charge and it was time to just say all right? You know I could do this that was probably the worst part point in my life in terms of when you look up to somebody you think they're your mentor but they're actually the anti mentor. So sometimes you learn a lot. Um, the anti mentor which I unfortunately happens to be you know a parent. Um, that's probably the worst point of my life but it was the most life changing moment in in my in my life and it kind of made me who I am tonight which for you know, good or bad. You know, but but that was probably. Something that really described who I'm gonna be basically you know painted my picture the best moment I would say is when in my well let's do career. Is you know because say gave my life I can say you know dad was married day. You know my 2 kids were born. You know I could do that but I would say the best point of of my life. What my career was when I got handed up ah an envelope and inside that envelope was you're being promoted to svp.
40:04.51
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.
40:20.97
Kevin
I wasn't even looking for it. I wasn't even asking for it. I wasn't even expecting it. You know it was during my you know annual review I handed this to me and they said open it I open it I'm looking at I said I'm either getting fired or something's going on I open it up and I'm reading and I mean I choked Up. I got I got a little you know I was like Wow like when I think back what happened when I was a kid and not having you know both parents while having 1 parent house like but not having that father figure to to that moment 30 years later, you're like Wow. You know this is special like I you know under all this adversity I was still able to achieve this and to me that's I you know I'm still in shock I get me I kept I kept a letter I don't I think it's in here somewhere. Um I kept a letter because it's just that to me was like Wow. You know I was able to do it. So Maybe that's part of that whole imposster syndrome that maybe my whole life. You know I'm um, I've been an impostor because I had so much working against me, you know and maybe I didn't belong here. Maybe I'm supposed to just be. You know.
41:28.17
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
41:35.76
Kevin
Want to work coming home doing this like no like I was meant to do something bigger and they handed it to me and that's why it's so that's why I take my job so seriously and I mean you know me like you know send as I'll get you know a little emotional but that's that that's the passion. That's the passion.. There's a reason behind you know that that. That that passion is a driving force that most people don't know Well now I Guess a lot of people know I don't how many I mean people I mean listeners you got but you know that's that's that's the reason why I am the way I am and I wouldn't change that for the world.
42:08.12
drnobodypodcast
That's an amazing story I Appreciate you sharing that? um I mean I felt I felt it for you as you were talking about the letter I Thought you're you're gonna say you got fired and then you you came and but maybe a different kind of letter. But.
42:08.75
Kevin
Are.
42:15.99
Kevin
Um, now right yet near the point.
42:23.22
drnobodypodcast
Ah, you know that's amazing. That's really motivating to hear for for me and for the listeners to maybe it's not a letter. Obviously we're in different times but you know to be to finally get to that point where you you just did. You did you have like a flashback of just that moment where you're thinking about everything you've suffered.
42:32.22
Kevin
Are.
42:40.97
Kevin
Are you know? and.
42:42.80
drnobodypodcast
And dealt with in your life and then like graduation your your dad leaving or any other issues that came then you open that letter and you see it I was going I'm just so curious to hear what was going through you or if you remember what was going through your head.
42:52.45
Kevin
I Remember I I was actually it was even I was at I had to meet my old boss. It was 1 of our agencies in um, in Jersey and I remember we're in a corner office like she shut the door and and she just handed this to me and it was just like you know you get chills. You know I got I got chills and then afterwards I met my wife for pizza I mean that that was like that that was like yeah it was just like you know I don't know it's it's hard to explain how how how I felt and you know that that's for me but like you know when I think about other people look just you know making it to you know the next level. You know that that's a success.
43:15.20
drnobodypodcast
So romantic. Yeah.
43:31.91
Kevin
You know because it shows that your efforts are rewarded but you know for for me, it was I'm a type of person that's always looking for the next thing like in terms of you know how do I progress how do I keep moving up you know because eventually i' want to hit the I'm gonna hit a ceiling and and that's true for you know all of us is that we're always going to hit that level where that's it. You know you we we we would change we ah we attained godhood and and and that's and that's it you know like in Diablo I think the highest level is you know, 70 or whatever 75 so that's it you get going eye. Yeah, that level cap. Yeah Bella cap and and and I'm um, you know, approaching that level cap. But I still have a way to go before I even get to that.
43:50.23
drnobodypodcast
But.
43:57.20
drnobodypodcast
It it um hit the level cap. Yep, that's right.
44:08.18
Kevin
We Also define our own level Caps. We Always you know we can also say well I don't want to go any higher you know, but I still want to go I Still want to get there I Want to see what else is up there. You know because that it's you know there's still of a lot of rungs left up there. So You know we'll we'll say um. You know it's more about you know when I'm at this level whatever level you're at you know it's Moving. It's also moving vertically and or horizontally what's what's what's this way. This would be like spreading out horizontal right.
44:39.26
drnobodypodcast
That's horizontal.
44:42.60
Kevin
Is that horizontal growth that I think is just as important because wait you have to get the foundation down before you move on to that next level some people want to move to that next level too fast. Some people you know are okay, staying at that level. But it's really getting that foundation down. That's so important to set you up for success for that next level.
44:48.92
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.
44:59.93
Kevin
You know and that's I think where I'm at now is that now I'm learning all these other things that you know fine tune in a couple things here and there and I'm far from perfect but you know that gets back to like what we said before about you know learning every day that's what I keep doing you know because you know like I said get to that next level. It's that's.
45:18.98
drnobodypodcast
I Yeah, no absolutely and I think I've heard other people talk about that they like where they are. They don't want those responsibilities like you they're they're fine staying at a certain point. They've reached their level cap. But then there's other people that are highly motivated that want to keep going.
45:19.36
Kevin
You know a good goal to have.
45:27.74
Kevin
Are.
45:36.47
Kevin
Damn it does.
45:38.63
drnobodypodcast
Sometimes they move a little too fast and then that kind of hurts other people around them. Um, and you know sometimes that's their fault Sometimes it's the other people's fall who put them in that position but you know at the end of the day they have to manage themselves and succeed because it affects everyone.
45:46.19
Kevin
Um.
45:55.75
drnobodypodcast
And it doesn't matter if it's our industry and our world or or a different type of job out there. You know it's team. It's a team effort almost all the time and um I think that's a really important value to to understand. Um, so the other final question I have for you is.
46:02.50
Kevin
Um, and. Are.
46:15.43
drnobodypodcast
What are 5 essential things you think you have that have helped you succeed in life or your career obviously with ah you know you could do 5 of 1 2 to 3 whatever ratio you want to do but you know it's up to.
46:19.30
Kevin
Over.
46:29.36
Kevin
So word words or characteristics or 5 things 5 things 5 things that have led to my success or that I needed to have to get to that.
46:33.69
drnobodypodcast
Um, however, you want to say it. It's been 5 things. Yeah, and just keep in mind this is to help the listeners. You know if if you if you sat in front of them and they asked you like what are 5 things that could help me succeed you know what are they.
46:45.82
Kevin
Yeah, yeah.
46:51.40
Kevin
Now you know I guess I can go to the obvious of determination dedication all that stuff but that doesn't matter like you have to do that like that's that's you know that's cost of entry you know to what it told you got to do and I think it goes back to 1 of the things I said before is loyalty. Not again, not loyalty to your boss not loyalty to the company but loyalty to yourself in the sense that if you know you're in a situation that you don't want to be in either improve it or move on like because like you're not gonna do anybody any good so loyalty to yourself is so important think you know camaraderie I think is important I think you have to know how to work well with others and I know that is so hard in our industry. It's really hard because you're dealing with a lot of different personalities I mean everybody's good I mean they're all good folks and everybody just wants to do a good job but it's so important to be able to to. To to do that. You know, um, you never know when you're gonna need somebody. You never know then when you're gonna need to call in a favor. You never know when you know hey I have you know I have something do in an hour you know can you help you should never know. Um. I think you know when when I think of myself as as as a leader I think it's you know I don't know I don't know how to expression in 1 word, but you know it's I mean I don't wanna say papa bear but I think that's kind of how I am I think. You know it's standing up for your team. You know, even if it puts me in a situation where now I'm like oh like this may not be a good situation but I remained loyal to the team. You're only as good as your team I can't do what I do without who I have now can't do it. Can do it by myself. Um I can't do it with 1 person I can't do with 2 people I need a team right? And that's what we have so me standing up for them or you know as you know for your listeners. It's make sure that if you do have a team always back them up. Never put them in a position where they're not gonna. Feel they have your support you lose them once you never gonna get them back. That's it, you know and it's hard. You know it's not easy. You know it's it's 1 of those things that that comes with time but I think you know now actually let me think me say that again. It is easy. It's not hard to back up your team. It's not hard to say no this is what you know they need to do this is what this is why they did what they did and this is why I'm backing them up and why I'm support now. So I think you got you got you got to stay true to the team. You can't go against the family. You can't go guess la familia you know? that's that's that's so important.
49:39.43
Kevin
Um, you know you gotta know when it's time to shut off and I don't know how to do that yet. You know when it's time to just say all right I'm shutting off the computer I'm gonna go watch tv I'm gonna go play with my kids I'm gonna go you know, have dinner my wife. Whatever. You gotta know how to balance yourself, especially in times like this where now that we're still home. You know my day could just go longer because I'm home I don't have to worry about the community anymore. Gotta know how to balance it. You got to know that got to have that quality of life. Um, you know and then it's don't take yourself. Too seriously is everybody else is just gonna laugh at you and you know and that's what they do anyway, you know everybody's laughing at everybody and that's far they can laugh at me. But it's because I don't take myself. Seriously, you know I may be serious in meetings I may be serious and with clients or with my pitches but when it comes down to it. Not going to take myself seriously because why you know I can't with all the things that I had that happened in me during my life I can't take it seriously I just can't you know you got to laugh at things you have to you know and even this year alone like you know I lost my mom. So. Saying that's a funny situation but it's it's it's it's 1 of those things that it's like all right? You know you you learn from it. You grow from it. You mourn when you have to Mourn you know you you you you you reflect when it's time to reflect you know, but you gotta keep moving. Because once you get caught up in the weeds. Once you get caught up in a situation where now everything is just dumped on you and you feel all this emotion. You gotta laugh you know? So maybe that's it maybe that's the answer is just laugh laugh every day even if it's a wicked laugh even if it's a naughy laugh. As always you laugh, just laugh because like that's it really is the best medicine you know whether I'm laughing at somebody or if I'm laughing at myself or you know sometimes I'll get on camera and I'm wearing a costume I'm wearing like my peppa pick costume surprise everybody you know you haven't seen that 1 yet. But I've done that.
51:46.63
drnobodypodcast
I haven't seen that yet.
51:52.64
Kevin
You know or you know it's just doing silly things just to get a laugh out of people because I know muscle I can be a source of you know frustration at times. But again that goes back to my passion. But I think you know laughing is just so important. Just got to do it.
52:06.91
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, no totally agree, Totally agree I think the other thing between us like we we always make jokes you know, just a chill, especially after a stressful day dealing with people and clients. And yeah, no I'm.
52:10.32
Kevin
Yeah. Um, got yeah yeah I mean you could start your day screaming you know because like i' sit at my desk and I'll just do I like they did in that I got I Love these movie quotes in um summer school. Where um, there wasn't chainsaw was the other guy Francis I think his name was well right before the test he just I don't know if I haven't seen the movie because you're look at at me like you haven't seen it but he just screams he just you know grabs his head and he just screams and then he takes the test and I think he still fails it. But that's fine. The the other guy Passed. Um. Do that in the beginning of the day. Get it out because it's only going to get worse. But then the end of the day and they will end there with a joke because that's really all you can do you know we? we we take ourselves sometimes a little too seriously take the job seriously that that's that's what I will say. Take the job seriously because you know we have a lot of people that you know rely on us. We know we have clients that are paying a lot of money for us take that aspect of your life seriously because that's going to be rewarding but don't take yourself seriously because that's where once you do. Think that's where things start getting a little you know a little a little iffy and that's where it could go down a route that you don't want to go down. Yeah yeah, exactly exactly exactly.
53:33.23
drnobodypodcast
And absolutely just the read the room or read your own room. Um, so Kevin we're wrapping up now is there any last departing words of wisdom that you like our listeners to know or.
53:48.42
Kevin
Can.
53:50.77
drnobodypodcast
Anything you want to follow up on or ask me.
53:53.93
Kevin
I mean I think you know if you have any listeners that want to do this. You know, definitely you know, talk to people first talk to people who are in this field that are doing this type of work I think you know what what? you'll hear is. You know again, it's such It's such an amazing job to have you know it's it's it's something that I again I never thought that I'd be able to do I know a lot of people with ph ds again, they're they're just they're not just still not sure what they want to do we have to after they leave even knowing I think now I feel like there's more options. Um. And there was you know ten years ago but just talk to people. You know there's a lot of us now in in in advertising you know when I first started there wasn't that many. There's a lot of us now. But I think there's a lot of people that are leaving academia you know they're either going to to industry the pharmaceutical side or they're going to. Um, advertising but it seems like academia is just not as um, enticing for a number of reasons and you know it takes it takes you know, really you know dedicated people to do that and I look up to them and I really admire them to to kind of stick in with that because it takes dedication.
55:00.34
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.
55:12.45
Kevin
It takes a drive to do that and you know it's It's amazing that they're able to accomplish it but doing what we do you know man, it's it's It's just so exciting and you know I definitely urge people to look into it. Don't look into my job because I'm not ready to give it up yet. But I think you know definitely yeah.
55:28.72
drnobodypodcast
Ah, darn.
55:32.23
Kevin
But definitely you know, look into medical writing look into you know, medical director. We have this amazing position. Um, at at at our at our company as a research associate. It's somebody who kind of just got out of grad school in a pharmacy school. And it kind of it's it's it's a very you know it's it's ah you know it's a high impact job because it's you know we we really rely on them. But you really are learning. You're getting exposed to so many things and um, it really kind of helps you you know with the with the tricks of the Trade. So I would just say like I said you know just keep questioning. Keep talking keep asking because that's the only way you can learn but don't give up never ever ever give up. Don't be that impostor. Don't be that you know person where it says well, everybody's telling me I can't do this now. Not that just gives you that just gave me. The the willpower to prove everybody wrong, not perfect I'll get it wrong sometimes but you know baseball plays that hit the ball 3 out of 10 times and up in the hall of fame. So I'll take that you know you know if I succeed 3 out of 10 days. That's not good, but you know right? So maybe I'm battting 7 hundreds.
56:45.23
drnobodypodcast
I don't I don't watch baseball. So I ah 1 of my friends in my lab he had words of wisdom when it came to he he was a very introverted. He would say shoot your shots. You know you you.
56:45.54
Kevin
Bad You know that's better. That's better than Ted Williams but it's far but offer. A.
57:01.89
Kevin
Um, yeah.
57:04.82
drnobodypodcast
You gotta shoot your shots. You don't make any shots that you don't take and you know it was good I liked it and definitely took that to heart and he he was a very silly guy but that was probably the most intelligent thing he had ever told me.
57:06.59
Kevin
Um, exactly yeah you.
57:19.37
Kevin
It's true. It's true. You know you never know you never know what's gonna happen unless you do it. You know, take that leap like I said in between my postdoc and my um, you know my actually advertiser created There was a number of months where I wasn't you know I was looking to figure out what to do. Scary you know it's scary just to say I'm I'm go to put everything aside and just figure out what I want to do I know a lot of people that have been doing that you know they're shooting their shot you know and and and it's like all right and figure this out. You should never know you know you're always gonna find something There's always gonna be something but finding that perfect fit. It's like finding you know your.
57:38.60
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
57:55.15
Kevin
Perfect match in in in a spouse. you know it's 1 in 1000000 sometimes you know it's it's finding that perfect connection same thing with the job you know, same with a career because you never know what you go in there. You never know it's out there until you look you know.
57:57.30
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.
58:13.85
drnobodypodcast
Kevin thank you so much for your time and the words of wisdom and I really appreciate everything you've said today are the listeners able to reach out to maybe on linkedin to to learn more or you know, maybe ask a couple questions you know things like that.
58:15.60
Kevin
Are absolutely Check. Now Of Course. Absolutely.
58:30.57
drnobodypodcast
Amazing. Thank you very much I appreciate it. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Yeah, that was that was a great that was a great story. Um listeners I hope you gained plenty of insights today. This is the beginning of becoming a someone but specifically the someone you always wanted to be.
58:37.21
Kevin
Thank you, Thank you for the time.
58:47.87
drnobodypodcast
Hope you enjoyed this episode if you did please do give me a like and review and subscribe you can also visit the website. The Dr Nobody podcast to learn more about my guests and listen to the episode again. Thanks again for listening in to the Dr Nobody podcast where we turn nobodies to somebodies talk to you all very soon.