Episode 15 - The Art of Mentorship

A reoccurring theme throughout this podcast so far is the importance of mentorship.  A lot of what we achieve can be attributed to the amazing mentorship of people in our lives. In this episode, we learn it's not just mentorship as we think of it but the relationship you form, and this week's Guest, Seth, explains that to us.  Mentorships can go beyond the topic, it can be personal, supportive, and sometimes emotional.  Most people overlook the possibility of mentorships because of ego but looking at many successful people, they always have that 1 person that has totally changed their lives.  Listen in and learn about how mentorship goes in both directions.

Transcript

00:01.42
drnobodypodcast
Welcome everybody to the Dr. nobody podcast today I have my friend and my guest Seth chi chattayat is that how you say it? Oh excellent I thought I was gonna mess that up. Well thank you very much seth for.

00:11.72
seth chitayat
Yes.

00:19.44
drnobodypodcast
Being on this podcast. We've been friends for over 10 years I think 12 years since we met a long time ago when I was a we lad right? Yeah, it's ah yeah I hit puberty I guess um.

00:26.64
seth chitayat
Right? Yeah, yeah, it was long time ago, you still look the same except you have a beard now. Yeah.

00:37.40
drnobodypodcast
That's why happens I guess you look the same just less hair and on the top of your head right? Ah so Seth ah can you give the listeners a little introduction to yourself and then we'll get right into the interview.

00:42.30
seth chitayat
That's very generous of you.

00:49.67
seth chitayat
Sure? Well thanks, very much Dr. Nope for inviting me here today and it's it's a real pleasure to be with you and see you again. It's it's great to be here. So at the moment I work in Mcgill university where I'm a director of foundation relations and strategy and my job is to build. Partnerships with grant-making foundations and to help advance research and training at mcgill.

01:15.30
drnobodypodcast
Nice. That's ah, that's a lot to take in. Can you break it down for of our listeners like if I was a 5 year old

01:25.61
seth chitayat
So the well so what I would say is is that there are ways in which university research is supported and oftentimes that comes from. Granting agencies and there are other partners that also support academic research these these interests are 2 knowledge users and so knowledge users partner with academics and build partnerships. And those partnerships help to extend the value of what it is that universities do within within at least in in my case in in Montreal and Beyond and so working in partnership with different knowledge users and and different different partners allow you to. Really create impact not just regionally, but but also internationally and nationally as well.

02:26.62
drnobodypodcast
So is this kind of like for me and I just never thought of a position like that as a job is this like behind the scenes. What's happening universities with people that maybe a job that nobody's ever heard of.

02:40.80
seth chitayat
No I think you know no I wouldn't say that um you know I think universities are are trying to work in ways that are different. You know. If you think back to you know the the sixty s or fifty s you know universities were were incubators but you know oftentimes it was the case they just created things and those things found themselves into you know or or at least were disseminated. Those. That that knowledge and that that competency was disseminated and into the society. It wasn't there weren't and there wasn't an emphasis on partnership development. In other words, you know, bringing communities together in ways that. Would facilitate the flow of knowledge universities would create it and then in some way shape or form it would find themselves it would find itself into into society and whereas now I find that increasingly it's the case that. You know universities are trying to be a bit more proactive about how they they disseminate knowledge and how they they share it. They think they're starting to recognize that they won't have all the answers and that by working in partnership with other organizations that have. That have a similar interest and and that that have you know a certain view of the world. Ah, where that they may share a certain feeling or passion about a particular problem that they can begin to work together and share ideas and and and.

04:22.14
drnobodypodcast
So.

04:29.76
seth chitayat
Collaborate and build on each other's resources and expertise and competency to really create partnerships that are that are long lasting and and mutually beneficial and that create value for the people they serve and so you know it it recognizes that. You know, universities have strength and in in research and in in other in other capacities but there may be other partners that can make use of that knowledge and make use of that expertise to really you know help extend if you will that. That ah that that competency and apply it into a particular domain or a particular area of the world where that knowledge and and Expertise is so or or so it desperately needed and to to create and effect that change.

05:24.51
drnobodypodcast
So when I keep hearing partnerships that this is both in Canada and International right.

05:32.82
seth chitayat
Yeah I mean the United states operates in ah in a similar way in Canada in this regard. You know partnership development is I think partnership development is something that um is often associated with industry partnerships. So industrial collaboration with academia. And but the fact is is that there are other different partnerships as well. That exist that are that are meaningful and that are also meaningful and that also help to move knowledge into the public arena so or out I shouldn't say public arena but but. Really helped to target it and focus it in ways to to create value and sometimes you know I should I should also comment that you know sometimes partnerships are also helpful in in the writing of publications. So I guess in that vein. There are examples of it going to the public arena but sometimes it's a bit more subtle and again it's a bit more more focused and on addressing a particular problem and helping to to resolve a particular challenge.

06:43.33
drnobodypodcast
So I was leaning with that as a follow-up is has Covid put a strain on this on this partnership forming the partnerships finding the partnerships sustaining the partnerships.

06:58.64
seth chitayat
Um, I would say that you know I would say that in in a way. Um, Covid has made it ah in a way easier but to connect with people and it's it's. Think it's taken. It's it's been easier to to speak to people obviously because we're all at home and you know we're working in in different ways. We're not necessarily on planes and trains and driving around trying to be in different places and so I think in that regard. It's been. And easier I'd say that you know the problem for the the challenges associated with Covid I think is that it's introduced a lot of noise you know I I know that your viewers might or listeners might might think that I'm being I'm being you know I'm being I'm diminishing the impact of covid covid has been terrible and and a real very difficult time for many people and and it's it's certainly devastated. Our our our world and and certainly those who who've lost level ones I'm sure and you know words can't really explain and express um, how how they feel and how they were stripped away of that loss. Sorely and um, but what covid I think has has has done. You know is that it for for people in in my role I'd say is that. It's ah it's made it a bit easier to connect. But it's also made it harder to to build those partnerships because you know you can't see each other part of the idea part should develop is being able to to be together and. To have an opportunity to see each other's ah to teach to each other's environment if you will and see each other's you know lab. Or for example, you know, see the infrastructure lab. So right now we're you know where it's almost like you're laying the foundation for. For something to to to to to happen into the future. In other words, there's almost this agreement to say yeah this is a really great idea. But when things calm down with with covid and or after covid.

09:43.97
seth chitayat
After at least things become more open I should say that you know the the discussion of a partnership development can enter at next phase and when when we're able to meet in person so sometimes in a way like ah depending on ah the nature of their relationship. Depending on the you know, depending on the you know if it's early or if it's mature. It's Established. It's proven some that you know there's obviously some variation but in in nascent stages of partial development at least from my perspective you know it's always better to see people in person and to kind of connect at that level. And to help advance a conversation and so um I suppose that you know the virtual context in which we operate does ah us ah or could anyway make it more difficult to to to. You know, connect and meet up in person and and that can push back the timing of when when a partnership could be formalized. So.

10:48.90
drnobodypodcast
So doing a little transition here I know your background is is structural biochemistry How does someone with that type of Ph D end up in your position. Can you tell us your story how you started From. For your Ph D got your Ph D and then now where you are now in this position and give us the the tldr the too long didn't read so in ah in a quick quick fashion.

11:20.74
seth chitayat
Well, there really was no plan. You know, um, I'd say that you know I I want to get at the house and so I I finished high school at 18 went to university and made deliberate decision to. To leave um the city I was living in which was toronto at the time I'm I'm from monthall originally and I went to queens and queens university not not queens college and you know I did my 4 years there in biochemistry I didn't really have any. Any you know advice going into my four-year degree in the michaello himself was a biochemist I had a few experiences working at his company in working in sales and marketing and you know I kind of understood at a very high level. The idea of. Genomics and genetics and so it just was interesting to to see scientists connect in labs and and just having lab meetings and and being part of this this effort to me at the time this was. Mid ninety s mid to late ninety s and so you know genomic sequencing was a really big deal especially human sequencing and and human dna sequencing and so a lot of effort was was really being committed to to try and improve and.

12:41.73
drnobodypodcast
M.

12:56.94
seth chitayat
Resolution of data and also the timeless of data and so to make a long story short or a long story long that experience was kind of really helped to inform what I wanted to study plus at the time you know I looked up to my uncle and you know I saw he was a biochemist and I saw that he was um, very living comfortably and. Felt that that was a reasonable thing to do so I pursued a 4 year program and then towards the end of the program I really had no idea what? ah where I was going to go at the time. The university really didn't have much by way of career services or any real. Student advisors and so when an opportunity to work in ah in in a lab that had just started out and the principal investigated the time but just Hired. He would think he was in his early thirty s and you know he was pretty easy going I felt sure I could see myself here and there is a lot of money backing him and and backing the infrastructure in the biochemist department at the time. So I said sure like you know why I don't have to move anywhere. It was just comfortable and I just decided to sign on and. I did my 5 years at at queens and then I moved to Nashville and that's where we met and you know in 2008 2009 you know the great recession hit and I saw that Postdocs were really struggling to land their next position. Ah, they were hiring freezes across the country and nih funding dry up and it was a very difficult time and so I felt that there was there need to be a different way to do things here and this idea about building these empires led by pis just didn't make any sense. And so when it came back to to canada and toronto in 2000 eleven or sorry 2010 I again I completed my my second postdoctoral fellowship and I you know just realized that you know that the things he'd be done differently I was just. Absolutely sure of it and the extent that I went back to to do my mba that the robman school of management Uvt or university of toronto and so with my business training I I was worked closely with ah the dean of Medicine. Ah, queens and research the research viist dean and where you know we began and launched a partnership strategy that was really focused on trying to build mutually beneficial relationships with industry.

15:47.50
seth chitayat
And I also worked closely with faculty to build new research efforts that and secured new funding for those initiatives and towards the the end of ah you or towards 2019 end of. Dean's term I decide to to take on a new role of Miguel as director foundation relations and strategy which brings us to full circle what my interest was or and is still is around partnership development. In this case I work closely with. You know grantma foundations and so you know obviously we're we're just um, trying hard to to build out those those opportunities for for investigators across the gill and working with with with. Knowledge partners and building on those that are already in place.

16:48.81
drnobodypodcast
So you keep mentioning partnership and the full circle of partnership I feel like over the years we've formed a partnership and I've you know, besides our friendship. We also have I consider you my mentor and a lot of the reason why I've been so successful in my life. You know. Before we get into that story and telling the the listeners about it. Um, did you have a mentor. Well sorry, let me take 1 step further Back. What's mentorship to you? What does it mean to you.

17:19.89
seth chitayat
You know it's interesting. You ask that question I mean for me I feel that mentorship is something that is always seen as something extra um and you know it's unfortunate that we only have ninety minutes but you know to talk about this. But. You know mentorship to me is not something extra what I mean by that is that you know in ways I think that I'm familiar with it. It's always been structured mentorship. So it's almost that you know you had to fill out forms. You had to go through ah hr you had to. You know, put together goals and you had to follow up with your mentor There was such a power dynamic that existed or that exists in in what we know is mentorship today and I think it's wrong and I think that ah you know sometimes with friends. It's it's difficult to to kind of get that advice and to get that structured counsel. But it should really become. It should be something that's that's more freely available to not just help someone in their career but to help someone overall and that's what friendship is I mean when we spoke in the past it it. Didn't always focus on you know your career focused on.

18:28.26
drnobodypodcast
Okay.

18:36.58
seth chitayat
Variety of things that were going on your life at the time and you know sometimes you know with mentorship because it's so focused on this idea or it's conflated with career development that you know it it misses out on other things that are going on in someone's life that. Ah, might shed light on to why they're not falling up accordingly or why they're not ah you know on linkedin and and you know rewriting their cv and and doing the things that the mentors is telling them to do in a top-down way. So the power dynamic is is is a struggle and and. I also think that it's ah it doesn't always yield positive outcomes and you know mentorship that is also provided in in ways where you know you have these student groups on campus or you have these professional student groups who that come together. You know that talk about their career experiences and the opine and how you know they did this and they did that I mean it's also gross and and not helpful either because you know you and I had both have Mph ds but you know we we took different paths and ah. You know if I want to if I want to move? Let's say for example into the pharmaceutical industry just because you you know someone has that experience doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that this or translates to me. Sometimes it's the case that you know it it. It's a lot deeper than that. It's it's a lot deeper than the credentials you have. There are other things that are there that make it more difficult for 1 to transition than the other. So I guess to answer your question for me. It's it's ah it's not just about the career and it's about. Person and it's also about it's also 2 wo-way conversation right? because you know when you and I talk you know I learned from you and you learn from me and that's just the way it is um you know there's some things that might have I might have you know over time right? because i'm.

20:31.35
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

20:44.11
seth chitayat
8 or nine years old and you are that I've covered more ground so you know if you needed help on buying a house. Yeah okay I've been there done that before and so I can offer that advice. But um, you know I'd say that in in terms of you know other things that have I've gone on ah personally or professionally. You know there are things that you know you you can inform me of and you know and and and that would that would help to enrich my life and so you know for me Mentorship is something that's ah that that can only be realized. In in ways that build on a trusting relationship and not something that's transactional where there's a power dynamic or where there's a student group that that fancies itself with with a particular interest in how you know it's so easy to go from point a to point b I mean. My uncle used to have a saying the no 2 hands are the same and you know the fact is is that you know just because 1 person managed to work or transition into the to the pharmaceutical industry. Let's say or health industry. You know it doesn't necessarily mean that it's.

21:59.89
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.

22:00.31
seth chitayat
A works for everyone else and B um that Ah, even if it if it is an opportunity. It might be just again. It's sometimes it's so it's it's deeper than the problem runs deeper.

22:17.14
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, and those you hit a couple points that I wanted to talk about but that last 1 there is 1 of the ones I wanted to talk about with you is we definitely took different paths but we did both start at a ph d and we just ended up in different places. But I think. In terms of looking back of our mentorship together. It's gone. So for me a mentor and advisor are 2 different things. An advisor hits on what you said where they're just very logistical hey do this sign it for this class. This is a good book for you blah blah but our mentorship. Well, your mentorship to me has gone beyond that you've been there for me throughout my life's events. You've been there through the good times bad times you've given me advice but you know you you did say something and it was my question to you and I've never asked you this before. But. How has the mentorship affected you between us and have you felt like I mentored you in a different way than how I see I perceive mentorship you to me does that make sense.

23:23.19
seth chitayat
I Don't really understand how an advisory mentorship and and being an advisor to me really are not separate I mean they're kind of similar right? Um, because of you know.

23:34.25
drnobodypodcast
M.

23:41.94
seth chitayat
Getting advice is is helpful. Um, but that also helps to grow an individual because it it helps to shed light on the perspective. You didn't have before um I see that you know for me like Tv Be an example right? You know 1 thing that really impresses me about you. Is Ah, you're you're you're resilient. You know, um, you've overcome a lot of adversity and and you've dealt with many things that I haven't had to deal with and you managed to stand up. On your you know 2 feet and in spite of it all and so you you came out on top. Um you you know I think that you know from the time I when you met almost 13 years ago. Ah, to now I mean it's hard to you know you're you know you're in your house and you know you have a comfortable layout and you know who knew right? and so I guess the thing is that you know for me.

24:46.92
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.

24:53.73
seth chitayat
Dealt and overcome a lot of diversityity but I feel you know that somehow it was ah I was able to get to the other side with only with brute force where sometimes with you. You're able to do with a bit of class and. You know that that to me is ah is very Impressive. So um, you know for me I you know I like to think I can land on my 2 feet although I'm bruised and bloodied. But you know you line your 2 feet in with grace.

25:14.44
drnobodypodcast
Thank you.

25:25.80
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, it's.

25:28.63
seth chitayat
So I I think that that regard sometimes it it you know are I'd say that our our ways of dealing with problems or addressing problems are are different but the fact that you can land on your feet and. Graces says something about you and I'd say that for me it it makes I try and reflect on that and say well you know how do I How kind of land better if you will.

26:01.94
drnobodypodcast
And what I guess how has our mentor our mentor mentoree relationship affected you in your life.

26:13.33
seth chitayat
But Carls but this is the thing though like it's not you know the mentor mente thing and chooses a power dynamic and never really felt that there was a power dynamic between us. Um I think that if you were going to advise somebody. You can't be better than better than Them. You can't go in to say well I know more and I'm I'm gonna. You know I'm going to tell I'm gonna set them straight and you know I'm full of this this knowledge and you know I think the reality is is that everybody should be receptive and everybody should should be interested to help others.

26:50.10
drnobodypodcast
Absolutely agree.

26:51.72
seth chitayat
Um, and you know we're not talking about you know what kind of car should I buy like I think the problems we're facing today are are huge and and I'm not just talking about that. You know there's obviously the. You know the backdrop of you know of covid of you know inflation. Whatever those are those are big macro things. Um, you know there's but I'd say that. You know everyone has everyone has their their own baggage and we need to come to a place where we realize that we can't be productive unless we deal with our baggage and it's not always the case that. We can always you know be in Therapy Twenty four hours a day to deal with her baggage I think there need to be outlets that we all have access to which allow us to relieve some of this tension and that's why I think that you know when you have close friends and you don't have to have many but when you have close friends. And able to reach out enable to have serious conversations about you know a problem. Um, whether it be career whether be relationship or whatever because again, there are no boundaries in in any type of advisory quote unquote as you point out or this whole mentor mentee thing. There's no there. no boundaries right there're no guardrails it's whatever you want to talk about sticks and it's's it's the issue of the day and so you know if there's a way to to talk about the issue of the day and and we deal with it then great and it's a continuing dialogue. There's like we have 1 conversation and then.

28:43.12
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, that's a good point. Yes.

28:45.10
seth chitayat
Ends So It's a continuum right? But the point is that it's ah you know that I heard you and you know where you heard me and and we continue that wide discussion until it's resolved and it might not be resolved. But at least we. Have an opportunity to to talk about it and and hopefully to figure it a way forward. Um, and you know I mean Ultimately, what is that we're trying to achieve Carlos We're all trying to achieve that sorry.

29:16.50
drnobodypodcast
Dr. Nobody. It's okay.

29:22.90
seth chitayat
We're all trying to achieve Dr. Nobody is health financial security right? Health financial and social security. Those are the you know things that we're really trying to achieve.

29:38.14
drnobodypodcast
So is the social security the 1 you're trying to collect or is that just social standards. Ah I just play. Ah.

29:40.32
seth chitayat
No 1 person well social security just well I mean social. Yeah no I understand but social security just means the idea that I could walk out. Well maybe I'm being naive here but we just all want to feel safe right? and.

29:56.40
drnobodypodcast
No agree. Yes.

29:59.34
seth chitayat
And feeling safe means that you have money in your pocket and feeling safe means that you have your health and you're you're free of of Violence. You're free of of you know of ah of oppression and so that's really what we're all vying for at the end of the day. At least to me anyway and you know the fact is is that no 1 person can grant that. But if we all, you know if we're able to to work out and navigate some of the challenges we have in her life. Then maybe we can achieve that. Through conversation and through through continuous support that we have from our friends. It's just you know everybody is is under the same pressure. Um, you know we have bills we have expectations that we put on ourselves or society puts on us and we need to try and and. And respond to those challenges and and responsibilities or uphold those responsibilities and um and and and try and move forward. But I think what I'm what I'm saying here is that it's important for you know by coming together rather. Um, and and and building off these shared interests of wanting to be safe and and wanting to be comforted that ah you know we need to to be more open and and and to to take on a more of a collectivist approach in in. Helping to not just build our careers but also help to strengthen our families and strengthen our friendships.

31:40.58
drnobodypodcast
1 thing I want to make sure that the listeners are understanding from all this about the mentor relationship is at least for our example between each other is that I have definitely had other people throughout my career my life up to this point that were. Mentor like and we did have relationships but it was nothing compared to what you and I had and I always I guess I made myself kind of this. Ah, just you established such a high. Um. Mentality of what a mentor should be like for me that I always kept looking for that mentality and that behavior in other people and they never achieved it which is you know that that's just because 1 we had our friendship and our throughout all these years and these have been people have tried but I think the. Point I'm trying to make here and what you're trying to say is that mentor relationship can go beyond what the definition of a mentor mentee relationship should be like and that's what really I want to hit home is you have helped me in my personal life in my career and I think. Vice versa we hopefully I think on the other end but it doesn't have to be a power dynamic as you're saying these mentors can be other people just like you. It could be maybe your parents or just you know your uncle or whoever it is but someone who's there for you with the right mentality and. And what they want to do is just help you get to where you want to be in whatever way capacity they can and sometimes these mentors mentee relationships are not perfect and they may not have what you need, but then there's additional. You know opportunities where you seek out and look for other things and where where you're missing.

33:34.12
seth chitayat
Well I think at the end of the day you know we're not that mentorship is on something and again I hate to use the word mentorship because I don't feel something separate from what we do as friends or what we do is just even could be colleagues. It doesn't have to be wrapped into this pompous circumstance.

33:35.91
drnobodypodcast
What are you.

33:52.83
seth chitayat
You know I think at the end of the day that mentorship and and support or whatever you want to call it. Advice should be given to kids like or given to kids you know at younger ages. In other words like you know I say that we're kids because we're going 18 going to university but I mean the truth is is that students should be getting ah support. When they're at elementary school and throughout high school because really at the end of the day to throw them into a situation where they're committed to a four-year degree. Let's say in college to pursue a certain study right.

34:13.56
drnobodypodcast
Absolutely.

34:30.71
seth chitayat
And then to move on. There's this constraining like in other words I feel like as I get older like you're kind of this narrowing There's a bit of a it's on a tunnel. It's it's almost like this narrowing path because over time your your opportunity to change and to pivot. Ah. Is ah is somehow or somewhat constrained because of what you have going on. In other words, you know I have 2 kids and I'm married and have a house I mean so for me to just essentially drop my job and to go into undergrad. And to retrain as an economist or something just is on the cards because who's going to pay for that and and what are the you know so in a way you know there's a huge cost associated with this with a potential mismatch between a student who let's say. Goes into biochemistry but really wants to be an economist. It doesn't really know you know and say that because you know they took econ 1 to 1 or something and they said okay well you know my heart's are in economics but you know I'm already too far gone biochemistry. So I can't just go back because then I have take all and allless of the debt to finance it. But had they known about it earlier to say wow like in high school. For instance, if you had experiential learning to you know, ah to you know to the fed you know or to the bank of canada or right and. To have that experience working with central bankers or to have that experience working with investment institutions to see the the flex the you know the robustness of and degree in Economics. What it can get you. You're like wow this is great or let's say you know similarly went to a museum and you saw. Fantastic artwork that was being generated and created by artists. You know you might decide to pursue a career in our history and that's fine, but we're not really, you know what's amazing to me is that with you know with social media and and twitter and facebook and all this other thing like you know. Those those those platforms least to my knowledge of how and subscribe to them. So maybe I'm just talking I'm just blowing smoke but like there's no, you know these are all virtual experiences that we have they aren't real you know and my worry is that that. Kids are not going to have that opportunity to really go out especially with covid and the restrictions to go out into different businesses and units and to kind of get that experience right now their their their time is spent online and we we don't um.

37:20.79
seth chitayat
We're not realizing that the conversation around you know advice or you know exposure to you know expential learning. Let's say it just starts too late and the fact that starts too late. It means that we react more So This idea of mentorship is. I Think more of a more of a reaction in some ways because it's you know like you're in the program. For example, like when I was doing my mba like you know you started for mentorship right? But that's like when you're in the program and you're kind of you know, getting out and then you have questions around what you want to do and.

37:54.78
drnobodypodcast
So.

37:57.62
seth chitayat
You know there's no there's no, you weren't able to think about what what you want to talk about you know. But if you had earlier experiences and you're already in the setting and you get you? You know you you, you? you know, invariably come up with questions and curiosity and and then. You know if we're able to ah to to support children having multiple experiential learning opportunities throughout their their primary and secondary ah years then they're better informed about what they want to do and so when they go to college they hit the ground running. And they're able to pursue what it is they want to do because again as a society. Um I feel like we're losing a lot of productivity because where there's a mismatch between the person and the job and there's also a loss in proivity because ah. It's oftentimes that employers are looking for people who are in these jobs that you know let's say they're not really perfectly happy about, but they can't find them and those connections are not made so you know but I guess you know Utopia or and in a world where everyone is informed and. So much There's perfect information but there there was well foreign better informed. But what they want to do they could hit the ground running and and make you know make them more of their college experience. Ah and and again presumably um you know create. More value for themselves and in ways that are easier. It isn't sounds so it's not such a struggle to kind of create that value when I look on my own career pathway per se I mean I didn't even start I didn't really earn money until I was 31 so you know.

39:41.70
drnobodypodcast
Wow, It's a long time. Okay.

39:45.72
seth chitayat
Think that and even then when I started working I didn't feel that sense of security and it was like every day was a struggle because you always try and prove yourself and you know you kept I felt in a way because like there was no traditional path I mean. You know, of course if I did a postdoc and and I you know published so many papers as first author then you could move into a tenure chart position then become a tenure professor but that wasn't really there for me and so the fact that so when you're off the that path that linear path. It's ah you know you're you're kind of entering in. Ah, we're moving into. Ah you know a zone where you're you're really just reacting and and you're just trying to figure out what your next step is and you know it was a very it was a struggle. To to move off the the more traditional path into something that was let's say less less clear and those who presumably quote unquote I'm using quotations right now and in air quotes for those people who are listening that. Um. You know for those people who kind of mentored me if you will right like in other words previously my pg supervisor for example or you know postdoctoral fellow fellow supervisors. They they don't know how to mentor you they don how to support you like if you're not on the beaten path to become a professor. They don't know how to support you and so I was on my own I was on my own I didn't have a mentor um I didn't have an advisor I didn't have friends even who understood what I was going through. Um it was a it was a real struggle and you know, um.

41:19.15
drnobodypodcast
Absolutely yeah.

41:37.58
seth chitayat
When I was working with the Dean or you know some when you're doing things that are new and doing things that are that are you know somewhat high risk that um you know sometimes things just don't turn out and. Because you know you're you're in an environment where again, you're not really Protected. You don't have you know as a professor you're somewhat protected a not have academic freedom but you're protected in the sense that there's tenure. There's status when your staff you're not really, you know at least.

42:03.31
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

42:14.27
seth chitayat
When I was working I didn't feel ah I didn't feel as as ah as secure and you know sometimes in in you know things would happen and.

42:19.38
drnobodypodcast
Safe.

42:30.67
seth chitayat
Unexpected outcomes to be realized and you know it's stressful because again like if if if you know where else would you go and you know so it's ah sometimes I feel like that. You know when you're taking these nontraditional paths that that you don't have that sense of security and um, you know it's It's hard to find friends and hard to find I shouldn't say friends. It's hard to find Mentors. Who can really kind of advise in that nontraditional way because they can't necessarily identify with the path. You took to begin with if that makes sense in other words I mean if you in other words like I have my 1 of my other friends is ah is ah is a emergency physician right.

43:14.49
drnobodypodcast
Oh absolutely for me. Yeah.

43:25.30
seth chitayat
We We studied in undergrad together but he has no idea what I do you know he has no idea what I what I do and even there I have another friend who also does Ph D also has an mba we met In. We met in grad school and he's doing something completely different. And so you know even with people of the same with the same degrees um sacrosis here Quota exceeded error is that me are you I have an error here says Quota exceeded.

43:57.16
drnobodypodcast
What happened.

44:02.98
seth chitayat
Error you've run a free disk space.

44:06.63
drnobodypodcast
That's oh it's because it's saving on your wholeome. It started again. So I actually want to jump in here and um, just I keep mentioning that. I know exactly what you were dealing with and I think you know with my own story is that like during my ph d I knew going into ph d I was not going to be a professor in any shape way or form I didn't want to do that I knew that from day 1 so going through the program. A lot of people didn't know how to deal with that or talk to me or give me advice so I was always looking for people in that circle to help me until I found a separate program that actually helped students that wanted to go outside academia and even my personal advisor my ph d advisor. Wasn't too friendly about to the fact that I was going to graduate and I was not going to work in a lab anymore. So you know the listeners will have heard or will hear about that story during my ph d but you know you were there for me and you gave me advice and helped me get through it but essentially he was pretty useless to me. In terms of trying to get me a position or job or just even information outside the academia space and this goes for any type of job. Not just academia. There are some jobs where you are programs that you do you're expected to do something at the end. Whatever the position is. And when you go outside that norm it just shuts down the system like everybody freaks out. They don't know what to do and there's that's just the way it is and it's the way you can circuvent those issues or ah, get past them to to succeed on your own or through through e. Mentors or people that can just give you advice who have also done it as well. So yeah, it totally can relate to that but I wanted to transition to 1 more question on mentoring and then um, move off to a different topic when someone is thinking about. Finding a mentor because after they listen to this Ah maybe they might start thinking about okay who in my life can be a mentor to me who in my life related to my current career path or dreams unrelated to my dreams or career path. It doesn't matter what are what are some characteristics you think that they should be looking for. And a mentor and what are things they should be looking for as ah, a red flag that wouldn't be a good fit for a mentor.

46:37.77
seth chitayat
Um, I think you first have to understand what is that you want you know? I mean you have to know what the problem is and sometimes we don't really know what the problem we're trying solve solve for is but you need to have a sense of what it is that you want to get out of any conversation right? before you have it. Um. And there may be some people who are better suited to have a serious discussion. Let's just say forgive a mentorship. Let's just say who is able to have a serious discussion and and to have ah a longer than a five minute detention span. Um, and so if you can.

47:10.70
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

47:17.25
seth chitayat
You know, maybe that that can help you narrow down. Um who you would reach out to and and have that conversation with the other thing I would say is that you know you wouldn't want to speak to somebody I mean those are not. The only 2 criteria that I would use I mean obviously you wouldn't want to speak to somebody who's condescending and who has a history of of speaking down to to you or making you feel bad so you know, but if you're if you're aware of of of you know of of those.

47:39.54
drnobodypodcast
So.

47:52.12
seth chitayat
Concerns and if you're able to use them to filter out who does they you speak to you wanted to you know I think you you obviously want to be Comfortable. You know being vulnerable at least at some level because you're coming to them not just for advice or mentorship. But you're coming to them because you don't really know the answers to certain. Things that you're struggling with or they might be thinking about and so I think it's important to to to a twi to search for someone who who who at least you know you know filtering out people. You know if you're able to kind of use through. Look at that person through those through through that lens I Guess if you will then or that broader lens then you know that would be something or someone who I I would consult with and talk to and ah.

48:31.30
drnobodypodcast
Um.

48:42.78
drnobodypodcast
And something to avoid.

48:46.44
seth chitayat
Well something of voice. We just said like you know I think you you don't want to speak to somebody who you don't just route the Bat. Don't respect that you you know who speaks or someone who's made you feel bad in the past or someone who you fundamentally disagree with on on key issues I think that could be a problem. Um, and I shouldn't well I should be careful with what I say about that because I know that you know sometimes politics gets in the way but you know if you're able to navigate that and you know. Focus on the positives if you will or focus on areas where you you do have agreement then that that could be helpful discussion but the key thing is you don't want to deal with people who who make you feel bad or again who introduces power dynamic and you know that? ah and and you want to. Talk to people who can listen and not necessarily speak and presume things.

49:45.35
drnobodypodcast
Okay, thank you so expanding on mentorship and your career in your life. Can you give the listeners just so that they know you're human your your worst career moment and your best. Ah, so I should say worst career life or life moment and your best career or life moment.

50:09.95
seth chitayat
I would say that my my worst career moment was you know and this is kind of related to the struggles that I was referring to earlier is that you know the problem with.

50:10.17
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, answer it.

50:29.10
seth chitayat
Least when I was going through it. Grad school was that your only valued based on how many publications you produced and how many words you got and how many conferences you went to. It was almost like you were somewhat of a widget and you know and there are all these different metrics to evaluate. Least in this case me and sometimes that would be really quite diminishing. It was really quite didn't feel good just to be measured on on using those quantitative measures because sometimes projects are difficult and sometimes you know cloning a gene can take 6 months. For whatever reason and so I felt in in a way that I was underappreciated and also when I was at vanderbilt there are moments again I was dealing with law of personal issues at the time my dad was cancer. Um, and I was going back and forth to montreal and at the time you know I wasn't you know I wasn't able to produce a first author publication after 2 enough years working in the lab and you know it was a very stressful time because I guess that expectation. You know had come to fruition or at least materialize for for others and I got the feeling that that there was some patience and and again the underappreciation. The. Ah, some of the hardship associated with being able to respond to their growing expectations was I'd say you know those were difficult moments and then you know even when I did tremendous work. Um, you know back. When I came back to canada working at queens I felt that that ah the appreciation wasn't always there and it it was very hard for me to swallow. Even though that I knew. What I had done was really tremendous. So I'd say that feeling underappreciated is is a problem and sometimes it could be self-defeating I mean you have to rise up to it and you have to overcome it and there are ways in which I overcame it.

52:58.97
seth chitayat
When I was at vanderbilt and sometimes underappreciation is unintentional sometimes just because the the person you're reporting into just doesn't know they have a lot going on. They just don't know and you have to make them aware of it and so that was the case in vanderbilt and. At the case of queens it was really just more of leadership changes and getting caught in the Middle. So I feel that again those experiences have felt very alone I got counseling when I was at Nashville to to help navigate those. Difficult situations and that was helpful. Um, and when I was at queens I admittedly I I I had to look elsewhere and I'm grateful that. Mcgill recognized my credentials and and my boss appreciated what it brought to bear and that was very meaningful to me.

54:11.10
drnobodypodcast
So was that your like 1 moment in your life where things started turning great like your aha like this is awesome. This is this is where it's gonna keep chugging or did you still face some adversity or some issues. Moving forward from there. Yeah.

54:30.42
seth chitayat
From when I left Queens or from just when.

54:33.28
drnobodypodcast
When you got for me. Yeah, after you left queens. Yeah.

54:36.76
seth chitayat
Well, you know I you know this the other thing too sometimes ah mentorship and advice is really within your own backyard I mean my wife has been a rock. Um I'm very grateful to her I'm very grateful to my kids for what they've been able to to do for me because. I had to move to montreal and you know that meant being away from home five days a week and that was very difficult on her and very difficult on the kids too. So I'm very grateful to them for for providing me with that flexibility to go back and forth.

55:01.56
drnobodypodcast
Well.

55:15.13
seth chitayat
And I'm also very grateful to Mcgill for being understanding as well that you know I'm based in toronto and give me opportunities to work here where where and when appropriate so that was that was appreciated and. And so I think in that case, you know again I wouldn't say that there was mentorship there you know, but I think there sometimes they're they're you know again, mentorship. Invokes this this this sort sorry sometimes it gives people the impression that you have to search outside your family unit in order to get it or somehow's a work thing. It's it's not a work thing. It's a life thing and.

56:07.30
drnobodypodcast
Yeah.

56:09.16
seth chitayat
You know when you have a caring employer when you have a caring family that you know that that makes it better sometimes and you know I shouldn't say sometimes makes it better all time and. You know it makes it makes difficult things realizable and so that was that was a difficult period but I got through it because my wife my kids and and also my employer and also you know I work hard I mean you know again I mentioned. You before that There's 1 of the things that grad school and the postdoctoral experiences taught me was um how to work long hours and you know how to pull through and how to really see the force from the trees. Um, you know I think you know where. 1 of the things that has been interesting over the course of my career and I think you you could identify with this as well or you can identify as well is that if it was easy would have been done already and you know you're always creating new things. Creating New knowledge that needs to be translatord Disseminated. You're creating new awareness and the fact you're always doing something that's new and the fact you're doing something that's different means that you'll make mistakes and means that you'll there'll be missteps but you learn and you know. I Remember my colleague coming over to my house once and you know she said to me how did you do it like how do you,? you came to Montreal and you know you're working Mcgill and you're coming back to Toronto see your family and you're working really hard and I pointed a picture to her I. I had ah of me and another grad student who started at the same time in the lab and we couldn't have had different projects. We've had totally different experiences in grad school but we graduated at the same time and so to me, you know. Roads are different but the destination is is the same and I guess that picture for me means a lot because it shows that even if you've had ah a different experience that arguably might be a bit more complicated or difficult. And you know 1 my face more diversity than than others you know at the end of the day that the goal is is reachable. Um, but overcoming those moments of of difficulty is really where it makes a difference and ah.

58:56.15
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

58:58.36
seth chitayat
In Grad school. You know again, my my girlfriend the time who tried to be my wife was was wonderful and was a huge supporter. Um, and you know I have to say at the time there were there were people who were working with me in the department who were. You know with technical staff who were very supportive and and sympathetic and there were times when my supervisor would also you know I'd have the ear of my supervisor to talk about some challenges and and you know he was he was available to to listen. So you know I think what's in my experience. You know if you were to kind of map it out and and think about mentorship and whatnot. You know I talk about in grad school. You know the challenges there're in difficult project New Project New experiences, new protocols to be set up. Takes time you're building new things and you're bound to get egg on your face but there are people there who you know again, nontraditional mentors or advisors technical staff technicians you know working with. Ah. Talking to other pis on the floor because you might want to confide to them things that you can't really comfortably described or disclosed to your supervisor fellow grad students and then you move to you know, being a post-hoctoral fellow and you think well like yo your big cheese there you know everything which I didn't and.

01:00:23.15
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:35.18
seth chitayat
You know there were other postdocs there who were very who were empathetic and who also had challenges and then I went to see counselor who was very very helpful and and helping me to describe and and to write out exactly what my accomplishments were that were well received to the. To the Principal investigator and and who I really really? ah, appreciated the experience that and the opportunity that he provided me and then when it came back to to toronto and and. You know when it came back to working at queens that again, you know that it was almost like mentorship and advice in in ways that you wouldn't have expected. There were just there's just a network of people who you associate with and that you're able to to share you know a drink with so to speak. You know the closest person I even though I I was very close and and productive with my superiors when I was a queens my closest my closest ally and my my my my best friend. Um, while I was there was the head of surgery and. You know he he gave me everything he gave me his time and he was so generous and he's such a precious man and I'd say that in terms of a mentor in terms of a counselor I look to him you know he actually in. Conversation is just coming out that you know for the bulk of my life I I didn't really have that until I met him and you know he he and I just hit it off. We thought the same way we we agreed on many things we worked really hard. We talk. At length and when when reach on vacation and really want to try and make ah make things better and and and to do exciting things and so we really hit off and he went to bat for me on on many occasions and that was very appreciated and and he. He was a very generous man and when I moved to mc ill he had nothing but the best to say for me he was he was referenced for me and so he didn't he wasn't he didn't pull out in other words like you know 1 of the going back to some of the things that I said about what makes a bad Ah again quote unquote mentor. Um, is someone who pulls out someone who you have to follow and and cater to and kiss their hand. But when you make a decision that they don't agree with they just pull out and they say well you know forget you pal and they they leave but this guy didn't.

01:03:23.41
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, that's unfortunate.

01:03:27.51
seth chitayat
This guy didn't do it and I was so grateful and he you know gave me a nice card and the department got me a nice souvenir if you will and still in my apartment today.

01:03:42.75
drnobodypodcast
That's cool. Thanks for sharing and being open Seth Those are definitely things I didn't know about as your friend I thought I was your only friend to be honest, so it's good that you have other friends I'm happy for you and it hurts my feelings a little bit but that's Fine. We could talk about that on the on the side. But. What I want to ask you now and thinking about what you just talked about and being open about your life and your successes your failures What are up to 5 things and just you know just name them out. Um, we can open up the floor after we we hear them what are 5 things. That you think are essential in in your success that you would like other people to know that has worked for you now it doesn't mean it'll work for them but just to hear what those up to 5 things are.

01:04:32.84
seth chitayat
Um I don't want to be so tactical I mean I'll give you the 5 things because you ask the question but there's there's a bigger thing that that I feel like I'm not being able to touch on because we only have ninety minutes and and sometimes I feel like that it takes me a bit longer to express my myself. Reality is that everybody has value. Everybody is valuable and it sounds so cliche but it's so true I mean you know the fact is that we we go through life and you know we we we do wear a school It's very focused on the student right? So you go through school you get your marks you you know you. Move to high school. You do all these different new experiences you go to college you get your degree get married and blah blah blah. It's a very you know is this ah is this traditional trajectory that that that people take but I think that just now you know where we are right now in the world. Um. Is that we become more self-indulgent. You know we become more focused on ourselves and there's less of this outreach and there's less of this support unless you want to pay for it. But the fact is is that you know as I said earlier like mentorship and advice and counseling and whatever. All those things that a therapist would give and I'm not downplaying therapy I mean I've I've obviously told you that I went to see a counselor and therapist when I'm in Nashville um, so you know clearly I I value it. But you know I feel that in a way you know if you're able to. Have that support and and and and love and and care. Um all the time or at least like as you grow. Um, then it's very soothing. Um, and. You know it. It makes a person feel better. It makes a person feel more secure and it makes them feel more anchored to take on the bigger challenges to achieve financial security or to achieve and to improve the quality of their life far too long. You know you have people who come from. Ah, different communities who are not as well supported and they're expected to to yield a similar outcome and that's not fair. Some people need more than others and ah for for many reasons and we can't treat everybody in the same way. And I just find that right now that you know what covid has done is that it's almost made it. You know we're almost more hyperfocus in ourselves than ever before and we're all nal gazing as opposed to looking at the broader you know, universe and world.

01:07:16.73
seth chitayat
And realizing how we're all interconnected because if if love and support are not extended to people who come from. Let's say marginalized communities. For example, we pay for it later. There's no free lunch. Um, we pay for later and in in spades because. You know if if if you know, but you know we see it where you we see here in Canada you know you know indigenous peoples are are you know had there are so many. Um, you know? Ah I mean words cannot begin to express. Um, how difficult it is. Ah, for them to to realize their potential and and the the reasons are multifaceted and you you hear. But what happened to residential schools in the country and you know to say that indigenous and and non-di peoples. Ah. You know are on the same playing field. Let's say in in accessing higher education. For instance, it's not It's not It's not a correct It's not It's not this, you're know you're not comparing um it's on a fair comparison. Um, it's on a fair statement to say that that you know both communities have similar access to higher education for instance and so I mean you know I don't want to necessarily get into it. All that much other than than just say that you know, no 2 hands are the same and and you know for not supporting everyone to the extent that they need to be supported then we pay for that down the road and so. I feel that that ah you know I feel that it's important to to to provide ah not just guidance but to to really you know to to be to express and show empathy and and to really. Build an awareness and familiarity. What people are struggling with so you can better respond and help guide them along the way. Um, so in in terms of the in terms of the 5 things that I guess you know if you will that I reflect on that. Um.

01:10:05.92
seth chitayat
That made me successful Dr. Nobody is that is that what you're trying to get at um I just want to make sure that I kind of paint that backdropw because it's not you know what? I'm saying here is not can't be scaled so I mean it's kind of.

01:10:10.25
drnobodypodcast
Yes I am.

01:10:24.85
seth chitayat
Didn't like that for me, but it's only like that for others I would say that for me, you know it's ah it's tenacity. It's ah just being able to work hard and to keep up. Keep both feet moving at this, you know and and and to to realize that rome wasn't built in a day so you know to recognize that as you move forward. The second is to find ways to ground yourself. Um. In other words I think that you really take care of yourself before you could take care of others and so it's important to to invest in yourself to to find productive outlets. Um, and. You know what? I mean by that is you know it's important to at least for me to ah, just be to be grounded to to to be able to find a place or find something or someone who can. Be that calming or could have that calming influence. The third is that you need to know when things are we don't feel good. Um, you know when you when you start to. Have aches and pains in your shoulders and you're starting to get stressed out and you're starting to really not feel healthy to recognize those signals and to to change and to pivot accordingly and so that could take ah. You know that may mean you need to change in career. It might mean you need to you need to you know, find ways to to document and express these stressors to again someone who you care about and. Someone who could provide that counsel and guidance or it might even be that you know that person who provides you the guidance could be a therapist for example and that's why too? Um, but to try and and and recognize those signals and and and start. Making changes and so that could be looking for the jobs or it could be going back to school and be training as as something or or something else I should say um and you know, um, the.

01:13:11.99
seth chitayat
You know or or at least ah changing your routine and and going for walks and exercise that could help too. The fourth is ah to to realize that you're always learning that you know it is that. You know I feel that ah that I'm I'm always learning what is that I'm doing and you know again, if it was recognizing that if it was easyever done or ready and so having that perspective but just putting things perspective is important sometimes. Especially in the world that we live in today. It's important to really take the long view and not to short on life and you know the final thing I would say is is that ah you know you have to be you have to recognize that ah, that. But we can't view relationships as being distribuive. Um, in other words I find sometimes in our in our in our world Today. We're very much about well they get more I get less and you know. You know it's all their fault. It's you know the truth is is that the truth is always somewhere in the middle in in in many cases and I think we just need to recognize that that we're we're not, we're not widgets here. Can't always see things and view relationships being distributed as transactions you have to you have to really? Ah, you know whether it be a gas attendant who who fills your gas or whether it's someone at the grocery store who's you know putting who's bagging your groceries. Treat everybody in the way that you want to be treated and you know if if they're if if someone is off or if someone cut you off when you're driving. It doesn't mean that they're tried to hurt you it just means that something's going on their day and they're not at their best and patients and and you know. Seeing things you know in in that in that way ah can help things just can help make things easier. Um right? I mean I go to butcher the expression but it's a you know. I guess the it's paraphrasing cure but essentially it's it's always easier to get things with honey than is with vinegar. You know? well you know bees are always attracted to honey that aren't attracted to vinegar. So if you're sweet then more things will stick to you and.

01:15:48.35
drnobodypodcast
I don't know that 1

01:15:56.91
drnobodypodcast
Ah.

01:15:59.41
seth chitayat
You know as opposed to having some sort of repelling agent which is you know like vinegar which is a bit off putting.

01:16:06.10
drnobodypodcast
I like that 1 that's a that's a good little thing um with the last couple minutes we have left I just want to ask 1 question and then the final 1 in in your term in terms of your career. And even if it's your current job right now. What's the coolest thing most exciting thing you've done thus far. Yeah, or in your current job.

01:16:31.12
seth chitayat
In my career. I think it's again, it's it's it's it's building something from scratch. Um, you know whether I started at when I started a queens and my grad school. Oh sorry, my ph d should say you know you're building something new that know would ever built before built before. So you know I I think that was really quite um, quite common I'd say across my my career. The other thing I'd say is that you know I innovated um, you know when I was at vanderbilt. Again, hand ground running no grants or due etc I really took upon myself to to look to see where there may be other data stored and to make use of those data that have already been collected rather than claim collecting new data per se or. You know, finding ways to complement the existing data sets to try and get papers out sooner to get grant figures created sooner. So I innovated in that way and I really also took on other responsibilities to try and and get as many papers out as possible to show productivity. Ah, not just for myself. But for for the lab as well and on that particular project and you know the work I did in I'd say over the last seven years or so or 8 years when I was at Queen's end here vi mcguil two is that you're building new things. building new programs and building new efforts and I think that's that's great I mean it's ah it's exciting. So um, you know some days you're better than others but I say for the most part. Ah, that's what that's what intrigues me is that you. You're an entrepreneur or at least I'm an entrepreneur I like to think myself as 1 and where you're bringing people together who wouldn't have otherwise been brought together to seize new opportunities and and to try and and try and create new partnerships that help extend the value of what is that we're able to. Provide to or beyond the university beyond the academic institution.

01:18:48.63
drnobodypodcast
So cool. Yeah, definitely I mean doing this podcast is entrepreneurial ish. But yeah I think ah those that mindset of expanding beyond yourself and beyond your expertise is fun and you're always learning and it's exciting Now. My final question to you to wrap up the interview is what what kind of what's your last departing words for our listeners or some wisdom some sage knowledge that you would like to share with them so that they know, um, something valuable from you. So.

01:19:29.39
seth chitayat
You can reach me by email I'm just kidding I Just think here's what I would say right is that.

01:19:35.46
drnobodypodcast
Ah, a if you want them to that's fine.

01:19:44.33
seth chitayat
Um, it's very easy to get into the gutter and to feel bad and to punish yourself and to take everything to heart I It's very easy and you know I do it and it's it's not always doesn't always say result in the best outcomes. Um I think we I think we all need to take pause and realize that we're really operating in a very very different environment. Then our parents did and our grandparents did um, there's we're really trying tore we're struggling right now we're struggling with ah with we're coming to head with things that were largely. Ignored before um, you know? but'll let your listeners clue in maybe I'm hoping they could pick up on what is I'm trying to say um you know there there are things that we ignored and. Those are are coming to to surface now and we're having to deal with them now and I feel that you know this this this this technology. Has also imposed on us has also been very imposing. Um, you know are used to Facebook and twitter and Instagram and you know they create this ah this Ah this this very ah tight ah and and overconstrained overfit world that some people indulge in and there's a real disconnect between that world and the real world. And oftentimes people try and project their sense of what's going on virtually within the internet and trying to project it onto real life and there's obviously a real disconnect there. So I say that you know technology is imposing kind of in the way that we see this this. Ah you know. The need to come together and and the need to really you know? ah you know support the the common good. Um, so to speak. Um, and it's also difficult because you know there's a.

01:22:33.13
seth chitayat
There's an economics that's associated with you know there's somehow there's there's a value that people place on. Let's say if you work in technology or if you work in Medicine. There's a certain value that's placed on that to not a value place. It of the disciplines and so there's this spectrum of. Of of how you know we we encourage you know different disciplines and how we ah you know in other words, if you there's the idea that if you if you want a successful life if you want to be on you know, buy a house and you know. Get a card. Not only could it. You know sometimes achieving those things depending on where you're living could be almost impossible but you know somehow there there's a premium if you're you know if you're not just a lawyer but you're a lawyer that has an mba that has. Other advanced degrees and so sometimes it's you know there's there's been some sort of inflation that has ah I'd say devalued our degrees and and now more degrees are required to to to be competitive and there's also certain. Again, ah, value of first first for some degrees over than others which I I don't really agree with and don't don't appreciate so I say that I'm not sure if this making a lot of sense. But. People can get lost I guess is what I'm saying in this world. You know you have ah you have employers drawing higher expectations of graduates. You have you know these virtual worlds on Facebook creating these these realities that don't really exist and you know you have with Covid especially with your. Restrictions have fewer opportunities to come together and so it's it's hard to and you know and then you have technology and the increasing digitization of everything makes it ah you know introduces risk because there's automation and you know where do we fit into this and. You know everything you solve with ai and machine learning. You know so the the question is how do you come? How do you move? forward? How do you How do you come together and how do you How do you bring order to such disorder and. That's a question that is very difficult to answer because um I don't have the answers I mean you don't have the answers. That's why it's important to have conversations and and in those conversations to um to expose your vulnerabilities and to say listen like you know i.

01:25:23.24
seth chitayat
Don't really understand what's going on here. Can you help me bring some clarity to this um, or you know you gone through this before What do you? You know this is where I am right now. Can you help me and shed light onto this for me. Um, and sometimes you know there there. Experiences that I can identify with but just hearing people talk allow them to come to the answer themselves in ways that are you know, guided you know through through through through some guidey conversation. So I just think that that. Mentorship or advice or whatever you want to call it. You know there needs to be more willingness to have conversations with people not by way of text not by way of email. But like this you know, um, right now I'm I'm sitting I'm lying.

01:26:11.37
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

01:26:16.14
seth chitayat
You know I'm I'm reclining in in my chair but having conversation with you. Um I could talk to this for hours you know and and so you need to be relaxed. You need to be an environment where you don't feel threatened. You don't feel like you're being judged. You don't have to feel like you're being on the clock.

01:26:21.83
drnobodypodcast
Oh I know.

01:26:34.16
seth chitayat
And and the more we're able to understand each other and to understand the different perspectives that we bring to bear. That's when you have a better world because you know if we shut people out of of discussion or from discussion then or if we're not willing to to actually have a conversation. We insist by text only then you can't really express anything and that's that's a real concern I mean you know I know this sounds crazy because I'm I'm talking like ah you know people who who might be listening think I'm like a bit of a hippie or something but the truth is is that like. You know for the parents who are listening on the call I mean like I had to text my kids in my own house because you know I just don't feel like yelling at them upstairs when they're on their computers or they're talking to their friends. Um, you know like what's you know. What do you want for dinner tonight for example, like simple things like that you know to get their attention and you know even when they're at the dinner table. You know their friends are are face time and everybody's listening and it's just it's just difficult you know and and I guess my kids are at that age right now we're. You know with with Covid. They haven't been able to see their friends as often I mean they're back in school now. But for a while they were at home remote learning so this ah it became normal to them to to connect you know by way of facetime and through zoom and and other modalities. But you know, um, what I'm i. I think what I'm saying here is that there's a lot of noise a lot of confusion. There's a lot of difficulty in the way they would communicate and I just wish that you know I yearn for simpler times when we could just go to a bar and grab a beer and then talk and. Not necessarily concern ourselves with expressing your views within 1 hundred and fifty characters or hundred and forty characters. Whatever twitter insists on and um, and frankly you know people you know who want to have conversations about things that are highly politicized or things that are very difficult. Don't just use Twitter and facebook to promote your views I mean just. You know, come out and talk and we need to have four. We need to have ah you know an openness to that because otherwise it you know it? Ah, it makes a lot more difficult to move forward in our politics. Um, and it makes it more difficult for us to move forward as ah as as nations we need to come to the table and and understand how we can work together because we're all different and with all different experiences. We've all suffered in in different ways.

01:29:22.43
seth chitayat
Um, and we've all had our own challenges but you know we need to come to to the table and and and listen I mean look you know you and I come from very different backgrounds but there are many. There are many ways in which we could identify or similarities. If I Just judged you based on your appearance. What would that you know I would I would miss out on on all the things that really bring us together that are much deeper than than skin color and background ethnicity. Um, you know it's ah so.

01:29:57.24
drnobodypodcast
Yeah, yeah.

01:30:00.56
seth chitayat
Think the point is is that we're all you know, flesh and bone at the end of the day right? We all you know we all bleed and so when we're cut you know and we're hurt and so we all cry when we're sad so I just wish that we would stop with these divisions and I feel that. Technology has kind of created those divisions and and I think our self-indulgence has also created these divisions with wealth that's been Created. We have just insisted on our ways you know I want my Starbucks I Want my. You know oh I may egg a muffin hot.

01:30:41.81
drnobodypodcast
So Seth I to summarize what you're saying is basically let's get back to being personal not through the internet not through social media but just old school. Let's meet up. Let's talk. Let's chat. Let's just be face to face is that.

01:30:59.69
seth chitayat
Um, yeah, does yeah I mean but I mean just yeah I mean being face to face sometimes is hard these days but I think yeah, we just got to get back. We got to reset and recalibrate the way that we speak to each other and we got to realize that support is not weakness if I need I'm forty 2 I'm train forty 2 I don't.

01:31:01.64
drnobodypodcast
Ah, fair. Yeah.

01:31:18.25
seth chitayat
You know, getting support and advice is not a weakness for me. It's actually maturity because you're reaching out and you're asking a question about something um you know and it might not be the answer that you want or it might not be. You know it may not have an answer but at least you're asking a question. And it's important to have those experiences and you know we shouldn't experience as good or bad help build character and help build perspective and that's what's very important in later years as you as you grow your career as you. Seed new ventures because life doesn't get simpler like gets a lot more complicated and and I think it's not just that it's not just the fact that you're amassing you know you know you're buying a car you're buying a house. You're buying this, you're buying that but it becomes more complicated because you're.

01:32:01.15
drnobodypodcast
1 hundred percent.

01:32:14.90
seth chitayat
And this goes back to point I said a while ago is that you know people die and you lose that grounding so how are you going to get that grounding That's why in a way like having friends and having sources of support that you can rely on that you can you know you can pull from ah they don't make up for a lost. You know, parent or. Loved 1 but they're there and and there's someone there are people you can reach out to and that's why you know there's this expression that my friend came up with or that that's king kim byi before he he said no 1 person is an island. In other words, we don't all live in islands and. You know whether you're going to private school or whether you're going to to you know private sleepway camps etc. You're still benefiting from public infrastructure. You know they're there. There're sewers. There's there's water. There's there's sanitation. All these things are public resources and yet we shy away from that we we don't we don't realize that there's a public infrastructure that's building this wealth for for other people and so we have to give back to that public infrastructure and so we need to see um these connections that we're making as people. As part of that public infrastructure so that it it helps us to to grow and helps us to to to lead. Um I hate to say I don't want to use I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but to kind of lead I guess healthier lives. And not using the word're productive because I don't feel like that's always a good word to use because again it sounds like we're trying to squeeze somebody out of productivity but just healthier lives. Um, they have a healthier attitude and and they feel grounded and when you're feeling grounded and. Add so much value to so much energy. Um to the conversation. Yeah, okay.

01:34:15.76
drnobodypodcast
Seth I'm sorry I'm gonna have to start cutting you off because I in ten minutes I have to jump on the other 1 So I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap it up and then I'm just gonna say my last spiill here. Yeah.

01:34:26.56
seth chitayat
Okay, sounds good. Okay.

01:34:30.43
drnobodypodcast
So thank you very much seth for your time and sharing your story and being open and definitely your words of wisdoms and quotes is it. Okay for our listeners to reach out to you on Linkedin Um, you know for any more sage advice or any guidance.

01:34:45.85
seth chitayat
Sure that sounds great.

01:34:48.28
drnobodypodcast
Okay, all right that will be on his profile on the website listeners I really hope you gain plenty of insights today this this helps in the beginning of becoming a someone but specifically the someone you always wanted to be. Hope you enjoyed this episode and if you did please do give a like and review and subscribe and visit our website. The doctor nobody podcastd dot com where we turn nodies to somebodies talk to you all very soon.